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Criteria of a professional translator
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Samuel Murray
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No, professionals can accept offers Jan 18, 2015

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
3. A professional translator has his/her rates set for every service they perform.


This statement applies only to professionals that deal with pre-definable units with pre-determined prices that pre-matched to the effort involved in producing them. And that is simply not applicable to translators.

The professional is not interested in listening to "We will pay $..." from prospects, even if that is higher than what they'd charge. The pro will state "I charge $..." for this, and stick to it.


No, that is not so. Instead, the professional will take into account the prospect's requirements, and decide on a price range that is reasonable, and will then accept an offer in that range. He may also indicate to the client what that range is, or even suggest a price that fits that range.

The pro is free to explain (or to choose not to explain) why that price is reasonable (e.g. if the client indicates that he believes a different[, lower] rate is more reasonable), and is free to break off negotiations if it appears that he and the client can't agree on what is a reasonable price.

It is not unprofessional, however, for the service provider to give consideration to a price that the client indicates that he believes to be a fair price.


 
Samuel Murray
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Professionals work in different markets, and this is the cheap end of the market Jan 18, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
If we call ourselves professionals here but if it means working for low rates, then we are facing a new definition of "professional" that I can't be part of.


I disagree with any definition of "professional" that implies that professionals only service the high end of the market, and that (by implication) the low end of the market is serviced by "others" who are not professionals.

The high end of the market is also the most elusive. It is more difficult to get jobs in the high end of the market. Having the appropriate skills is not sufficient to get jobs in the high end of the market. It requires extensive marketing, canvassing, client liaison and the provision of "added value" to be successful in the high end of the market.

The market has not only a high end, though. There is also a middle section, and a low end. There are more jobs in the low end, and they are easier to get, and... they also pay less. A truly professional translator must decide, then, which end of the market he wants to service, and his decision will be informed by whether he has the appropriate resources to "break into" that section of the market, what kinds of risks he is willing to take, etc.

The low end of the market is a low risk, low outlay, low income section of the market. Translators who choose to service it, aren't unprofessional. They are professionals who have chosen to service a certain sector on the market, based on what suits them.

Some translators who believe that they deserve high-end payment may be stuck in the low end of the market, wondering why they don't get paid more. Some translators who are stuck (or who have been sucked into) in the low end of the market may be convinced of the superstition that all it takes to "deserve" access to the high end of the market is to be a better translator.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
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English to Portuguese
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In memoriam
My experience shows otherwise Jan 18, 2015

Samuel Murray wrote:

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
3. A professional translator has his/her rates set for every service they perform.


This statement applies only to professionals that deal with pre-definable units with pre-determined prices that pre-matched to the effort involved in producing them. And that is simply not applicable to translators.


I don't charge for cost estimates, though I spend considerable time making them every single day. So I streamlined the process as much as possible, by using averages.

I took the paradigm from authorized car repair shops. The manufacturer provides them with tables showing "standard times" for each possible job. The shop is free to set their per-hour mechanic rate. So if the manufacturer says it takes four hours to replace the clutch in a certain car model, they multiply their hourly rate by four, add the parts cost, and that's the estimate.

Now if they use a low-salary newly-trained mechanic, and he takes six hours to do it, or if they use their top shopmaster who is proud to do it in 2.5, IN THE AVERAGE they'll be doing okay.

So jobs vary within certain limits, however in the average, I manage to serve everybody with one single rate per word. This gives my clients the reassurance that it won't cost them more when they send me material to translate that I haven't (yet) mastered how to process more efficiently.

My pet example would be translating videos featuring two "Peters", two management gurus: the late slow-speaking Peter Drucker and spitfire Tom Peters. I charge the same amount per minute of playing time, regardless.

Samuel Murray wrote:
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:The professional is not interested in listening to "We will pay $..." from prospects, even if that is higher than what they'd charge. The pro will state "I charge $..." for this, and stick to it.


No, that is not so. Instead, the professional will take into account the prospect's requirements, and decide on a price range that is reasonable, and will then accept an offer in that range. He may also indicate to the client what that range is, or even suggest a price that fits that range.

The pro is free to explain (or to choose not to explain) why that price is reasonable (e.g. if the client indicates that he believes a different[, lower] rate is more reasonable), and is free to break off negotiations if it appears that he and the client can't agree on what is a reasonable price.

It is not unprofessional, however, for the service provider to give consideration to a price that the client indicates that he believes to be a fair price.


Different requirements will immediately change my price. While I'll strive to spare my clients from all unnecessary expense, I charge for everything I do.

The typical example again is video, though I do many other things. Many prospects ask me to transcribe and then translate and subtitle their videos. The transcript is not necessary; video should be translated directly, to preserve its rhythm. So I tell them that I CAN do the transcription, but it will cost them as much as the translation. If they don't need the transcript for anything, I give them the assurance that I don't need it either; no point in wasting money on it.

According to my personal ethics book, if they ask for a discount and I grant it merely for the asking, my initial estimate would have been dishonest! I'd be unduly surcharging all less assertive clients for their lacking chutzpah in not asking for a discount.

Of course, I am accountable to myself for setting market-adequate prices for the value I deliver. If I set them too low, I'll be flooded with requests, and the value I offer will consequently drop, which is known as a downward spiral. If I set them too high, I won't have enough demand, so all my available value will be wasted.

There was an ancient sales training video by Joe Batten, titled "Your Price is Right. Sell it!". I think I translated a remake of it decades ago, for dubbing. Anyway, to benefit from such valuable and time-proven idea, I first must make sure my price is right, and then, with transparency, convince my client that it is indeed!

I find it amazing that some new clients ask me for an estimate, tell me they have found someone cheaper, and assign the job elsewhere. Months later, they return asking me for an estimate on another job, don't want to tell me what happened with the previous one, and assign it to me forthwith.

I think most competent translators who complain about low rates either don't have their own price to state, or don't feel sufficiently sure that their price is right to sell it.


 
neilmac
neilmac
Spain
Local time: 12:43
Spanish to English
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As the man with the wooden leg said... Jan 18, 2015

Maija Cirule wrote:

A professional translator should have at least a bachelor's degree in translation, otherwise he/she is simply a wannabe translator not a professional one. End of story.


No. no no. NOT "end of story", just one opinion. For example,I have it on good authority that I'm a good translator and I am in constant demand. Recently I've been too busy even to reply to e-mails soliciting my services, so I must be doing something right. Yet I don't have a degree in translation. Go figure.


 
Max Deryagin
Max Deryagin  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 16:43
Member (2013)
English to Russian
Non sequitur? Jan 18, 2015

neilmac wrote:

Maija Cirule wrote:

A professional translator should have at least a bachelor's degree in translation, otherwise he/she is simply a wannabe translator not a professional one. End of story.


No. no no. NOT "end of story", just one opinion. For example,I have it on good authority that I'm a good translator and I am in constant demand. Recently I've been too busy even to reply to e-mails soliciting my services, so I must be doing something right. Yet I don't have a degree in translation. Go figure.


Do I understand correctly that you equate being in demand to being professional? If so, what's the connection?


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:43
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Respect Jan 18, 2015

The Misha wrote:

Take pity on yourself - relax! Once you admit that there is no "industry" to speak of, but rather a myriad individual translators, each with his or her different circumstances, niches, subniches, and still more subsubniches that quite often have very little to do with each other even within a single pair and direction, it doesn't look all that bad. Here, in the US, it all comes down to the concise, ageless formula of minding your own business. I think we should all do more of that.


Those are wise words indeed. I appreciate it. Yes, often, we look too much what is happening around us instead of looking to just do what we do and try to do it putting our best efforts forward.
Having said that, there is indeed room for "professionals" who see themselves as qualified service providers who offer a service/product at a price that is reasonable but adequate - adequate in the sense that we bring an exceptional skill set to the table, no matter how we acquired it!

The Misha wrote:
As to the question you asked, I do have my own, very personal definition of what it means to be a professional: A PROFESSIONAL IS ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY! Personally, ,b>I am a professional with close to 30 years of experience and a strong work ethic. I am very good at what I do. I do not work cheap, let alone for free. I am afraid everything else is just icing on the cake.

[Edited at 2015-01-18 03:22 GMT]


Yes, and may I say you demonstrate self-respect and ask for respect from others, and you know what and that you are worth it.
And there is a market for that, apparently!
Thx

[Edited at 2015-01-18 20:24 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
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English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Peanut dance etc. Jan 18, 2015

Samuel Murray wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
If we call ourselves professionals here but if it means working for low rates, then we are facing a new definition of "professional" that I can't be part of.


I disagree with any definition of "professional" that implies that professionals only service the high end of the market, and that (by implication) the low end of the market is serviced by "others" who are not professionals.


I have a different view. First of all, what do you regard as the low-end of the market - the market that pays rock-bottom prices and justifies it by not needing it done at a certain quality level, in other words, "give us a cheap translation of poor quality?"
Or are you saying you provide something to the high-end for let's say 500.00 for which you charge the low-end only 100? I wouldn't think so.

Samuel Murray wrote:
The high end of the market is also the most elusive. It is more difficult to get jobs in the high end of the market. Having the appropriate skills is not sufficient to get jobs in the high end of the market. It requires extensive marketing, canvassing, client liaison and the provision of "added value" to be successful in the high end of the market.

The market has not only a high end, though. There is also a middle section, and a low end. There are more jobs in the low end, and they are easier to get, and... they also pay less. A truly professional translator must decide, then, which end of the market he wants to service, and his decision will be informed by whether he has the appropriate resources to "break into" that section of the market, what kinds of risks he is willing to take, etc.

The low end of the market is a low risk, low outlay, low income section of the market. Translators who choose to service it, aren't unprofessional. They are professionals who have chosen to service a certain sector on the market, based on what suits them.


I don't see it this way. I believe that the fact that translators provide something for a clearly inadequate rate is because they feel pressured by what you call "low-end" clients. I see it as a big problem, not so much for me (because I refuse to work that way) but how can you do this continuously? Now you're going to say you mix it up and get a good job from the high-end and a lot of jobs from the low-end?
I believe that kind of thinking might lead to and has already led to a lot of people being simply exploited. No matter how much or how little the outsourcer makes or the end-client pays.
I refuse to work that way.

I believe with the right attitude and skill-set, every translator should be able to get get paid adequately, which allows him to work decent hours and have a decent living. What else do we ask for? Well, don't forget that as a professional translator, you are an extraordinarily gifted and/or experienced language expert, not a dishwasher (nothing against dishwashers). We're not going to make the big bucks every time, but working for the low end as you call it (I can find other words for it) for let's say 5 Cents a word isn't an option for a professional. That's not professional in my opinion.

Samuel Murray wrote:
Some translators who believe that they deserve high-end payment may be stuck in the low end of the market, wondering why they don't get paid more. Some translators who are stuck (or who have been sucked into) in the low end of the market may be convinced of the superstition that all it takes to "deserve" access to the high end of the market is to be a better translator.


I think many might be stuck because they feel there is nothing better out there or it's too hard to get to a reasonable income level and that they can't convince their clients to pay them more. Not so. Keep trying to get paid adequately for the professional work you do. Don't work for peanuts. No one in any profession should work for rock-bottom wages or prices. Doing so only makes other people rich. If someone feels that they're truly stuck, try something else, even another profession. But excellent skills and, of course, experience are just worth what they're worth, and no peanut can make me dance.

[Edited at 2015-01-18 20:49 GMT]


 
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
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Norwegian to English
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Professional translator Jan 18, 2015

Maija Cirule wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:


What are your criteria of a professional translator?



A professional translator should have at least a bachelor's degree in translation, otherwise he/she is simply a wannabe translator not a professional one.


It's about competence, not degrees. You can have it or not, with or without degrees.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
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English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
It's about what you can do Jan 18, 2015

Michele Fauble wrote:

Maija Cirule wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:


What are your criteria of a professional translator?



A professional translator should have at least a bachelor's degree in translation, otherwise he/she is simply a wannabe translator not a professional one.


It's about competence, not degrees. You can have it or not, with or without degrees.


I agree. There are many roads that lead to becoming an excellent translator. Real life experience often trumps any kind of academic degree in our profession. IMHO


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
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Some thoughts Jan 18, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
I disagree with any definition of "professional" that implies that professionals only service the high end of the market, and that (by implication) the low end of the market is serviced by "others" who are not professionals.

What do you regard as the low-end of the market - the market that pays rock-bottom prices and justifies it by not needing it done at a certain quality level, in other words, "give us a cheap translation of poor quality?"


The low end of the market is the end that pays a low rate, yes, but why does it pay a low rate? It does so for a number of reasons, and it may be interesting to take a look at some of those reasons. But first...

Let me tell you about two dental offices in my previous home town. In my home country, dentists may charge whatever they like. The one dentist's office was situated in a run-down part of town, in an old building, parking in the street, didn't spend much on interior decorating, used a 20-year old x-ray machine, sterilised its equipment on site (in a back room), had one assistant per dentist, didn't have a receptionist, and... charged a low rate, and accepted payment in terms. They had two dentists and one oral hygienist. The other dentist's office practiced in a building that was custom built for the dental practice (probably won several architectural awards), on a hill with a great view, a dedicated covered parking lot with full-time parking attendant, redecorated with expensive art at least twice a year, used the latest high-tech x-ray equipment, had at least two assistants per dentist, ceiling mounted televisions, special treats for children, etc, had two accountants and two receptionists on site, didn't sterilise equipment (no, every patient got brand new steel bits, etc, vacuum packed off-site), and... charged a very high rate, and required full payment on the spot. They had five dentists, two oral higienists, and an orthodontic consultant. The expensive dentist also offered a greater variety of services (including novelty services that people with lots of money think of as essentials, for some reason), and the cheap dentist sometimes offered very limited options for a certain procedures (which meant that some procedures required a second opinion or had to be done at a hospital).

Initially, I went to the expensive dentists, because they came highly recommended, but when my nett income was reduced (bought a house, got kids, etc), I started going to the cheap dentists, because they also came highly recommended, and my conclusion was this: for basic tooth work, they both delivered a high quality, adequate service. And for filling a cavity, the one charged five times as much as the other (I'm not making this up).


High end of the market, low end of the market. Now you might ask why does the cheap dentist not invest in better offices, better equipment, more staff, stricter payment terms, etc, if he is truly just as good as the expensive one. It's not as if he's unaware of the other dentist's success. Maybe he's a good dentist but a bad business person. Maybe he just prefers to have low overheads. Maybe he tried the expensive route, and realised that suddenly he had less freedom. Maybe he's just perfectly happy with his situation. Maybe he's actually a really bad dentist overall, but has a gift for filling cavities.

As to your original question:

What do you regard as the low-end of the market - the market that pays rock-bottom prices and justifies it by not needing it done at a certain quality level...?


Kind of, yes. The low end of the market is the end that pays low prices. Some of them pay low prices because they are situated in low-income countries. Some of them pay low prices because they are bottom feeders (i.e. they are several levels removed from the original client). Some of them simply can't afford high priced translations. Some of them are satisfied with lower quality. Some of them don't care about any "added value" that some translators offer.

Or are you saying you provide something to the high-end for let's say 500.00 for which you charge the low-end only 100? I wouldn't think so.


Well, it depends on *what* you deliver.

Both cheap and expensive dentists deliver a filled cavity, meeting the minimum requirements of the national dental review council. But the expensive dentist "delivers" more... he delivers a nice environment, a smooth running office, fobia-proof clean equipment, safe parking with a smile, and (most importantly) an appointment card with his logo on it that you can stick on your fridge door so that all your friends will be able to see that you can afford to go to *this* fancy dentist.

Translators servicing the high end of the market simply do more than just translate. And some clients are willing to pay for that. And some just aren't.

I believe that the fact that translators provide something for a clearly inadequate rate is because they feel pressured by what you call "low-end" clients.


I think we may be talking about two different things here: you speak of "inadequate rate", and I speak of "low rate", but you seem to equate low rate with inadequate rate. Leaving low and high ends of the market aside for the moment, what is inadequate depends on the translator.

For a translator who lives in a more expensive part of town, with a spouse that works only half day, with two children and a dog, gym membership, mortgage, high-end medical and dental cover, and who chooses to work only 5 hours a day so that he can spend time with his lovely wife and children, a given rate may be "inadequate", whereas that same rate may be perfectly adequate for another translator who lives in a cheaper part of town, alone or with a full-time spouse, in a house that's fully paid off or rent-free, with no kids, etc, etc.

How can you do this continuously? Now you're going to say you mix it up and get a good job from the high-end and a lot of jobs from the low-end?


Yes, partially. I understand that it may be difficult to accept in theory, but in practice it works.

I believe that kind of thinking might lead to and has already led to a lot of people being simply exploited.


That, unfortunately, is true.

I believe with the right attitude and skill-set, every translator should be able to get get paid adequately, which allows him to work decent hours and have a decent living.


I think it takes more than attitude and skill-set to break into the high end of the market (although it may depend on what you mean by "skill-set").

Don't forget that as a professional translator, you are an extraordinarily gifted and/or experienced language expert...


You may or may not be gifted (you may, in fact, be merely adequate, or even mediocre), but that is actually less relevant than it may seem. What's more relevant is whether the market is willing to pay high prices for people with such gifts and expertise.

We're not selling our giftedness and clients don't pay us because they are in awe of our expertise. We sell products and services, and whether we can charge high rates for it depend on what the market is willing to pay for it.

If you want higher rates, find higher paying clients. You can try to convince your existing clients to pay you more, but generally that's a non-starter solution, because clients pay what they think is a fair rate. So find clients who think that the higher rate is a fair rate.

I suspect many translators in the low end of the market simply slog on with the clients they have, unmotivated to seek greener fields. But that does not mean all translators in the low end of the market are sad losers... some might be perfectly satisfied with what they have.

As you say:

I think many might be stuck because they feel there is nothing better out there or it's too hard to get to a reasonable income level and that they can't convince their clients to pay them more.


[Edited at 2015-01-18 22:42 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-01-18 22:48 GMT]


 
sailingshoes
sailingshoes
Local time: 12:43
Spanish to English
It's a generalsied problem Jan 19, 2015

If you look around, you'll see lots of articles on new white-collar poverty, often thanks to the internet. Translation is very vulnerable to globalisation and competition. The downward pressure on prices is just a result of that, especially as multilingual professionals from various walks of life get dumped on the labour market by the crsis.

The only defence is raising your standards (maybe the word 'professional' can be used here), using innovation wherever it's available, and spec
... See more
If you look around, you'll see lots of articles on new white-collar poverty, often thanks to the internet. Translation is very vulnerable to globalisation and competition. The downward pressure on prices is just a result of that, especially as multilingual professionals from various walks of life get dumped on the labour market by the crsis.

The only defence is raising your standards (maybe the word 'professional' can be used here), using innovation wherever it's available, and specialising.

At the end of the day excellence is what counts. I don't have a specific translation qualification, but I've been in the game for 30 years. Believe me, when a client gets a job back involving, say, a compliance report from a central bank, they're only going to care about how well it reads. The proof is always in the pudding, and your CV and client list speak louder than any qualification.
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Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
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A different take Jan 19, 2015

I think this has been obliquely said by others, but to me it seems, a professional translator is one who earns all or most of his income from translation.

 
Max Deryagin
Max Deryagin  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 16:43
Member (2013)
English to Russian
I disagree Jan 19, 2015

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

I think this has been obliquely said by others, but to me it seems, a professional translator is one who earns all or most of his income from translation.


Working on several freelance platforms, I know of at least a handful of absolutely terrible translators who earn all or most of their income from translation. I would never call them professionals.


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:43
Russian to English
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Not necessarily Jan 19, 2015

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

I think this has been obliquely said by others, but to me it seems, a professional translator is one who earns all or most of his income from translation.


A professional translator is someone who knows what he or she is doing, who is a good translator, with the right level of both the source and target languages, right education, experience and who knows what his or her work is worth, and does not let some managers or other administrative personnel of some more or less (usually less) reputable companies push them around. I agree with Bernhard here--never sell yourself cheap or let be pushed around if you want to be considered a professional translator. After all, our professions requires education similar to that of doctors and lawyers, not beginning typists, although typing is a valuable skill as well.

[Edited at 2015-01-19 14:37 GMT]


 
Edwin den Boer
Edwin den Boer  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 12:43
Member (2009)
English to Dutch
Signaling Jan 19, 2015

Part of being a professional is signaling quality to people who aren't able to judge the quality of your work up front, or at all. That means being judged on your appearance. I resented this for a long time, and I preferred to be judged on the basis of test translations, but in practice that meant I could only work for agencies.

If you want to work for direct clients and get paid on a professional level, you have to find other ways of convincing them. Now, I'm in the process of app
... See more
Part of being a professional is signaling quality to people who aren't able to judge the quality of your work up front, or at all. That means being judged on your appearance. I resented this for a long time, and I preferred to be judged on the basis of test translations, but in practice that meant I could only work for agencies.

If you want to work for direct clients and get paid on a professional level, you have to find other ways of convincing them. Now, I'm in the process of applying to translators' association and trying to get certified, besides showing my experience and my resources, and improving my website. I didn't finish a bachelor in translation because I wanted to study something more intellectually challenging. I hope my master in literary studies counts for something.

Story time: Last year, I went to a have a tooth extracted by a specialized dentist/oral surgeon who worked in a small row house, who answered the telephone himself, and who displayed a plaque with the number 2 added before the telephone number with a marker pen - that must have happened in 1995, when telephone numbers were changed from 9 to 10 digits.

Maybe I should have listened to the warning signs, because he took out the filling of another tooth without noticing it, or at least without warning me. I only noticed it when I complained to my own dentist about lingering pain. This year, I had a clean and painless tooth extraction in a brand new hospital. So, judging a book by its cover may not be such a bad idea.
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