| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Agencies applying for large contracts - waste of time? Thread poster: Jeff Whittaker
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Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:40
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Time for an informed voice | Feb 17, 2016 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
You raised good questions, however my questions are not about prevention and reading standards with specific codes, my question is very simple and straightforward: is there a way for us to check they are actually using the translators that helped them win the contract? Any business should be transparent right? How and where can we check it?
You or I? Probably not. The organisation that is inviting tenders, probably yes. And that's why I asked Maria for her input. She will know whether the EU takes this seriously and, if so, how they are tackling it.
Dan
| | | | | The change of subcontractors | Feb 17, 2016 |
has to be approved by the contracting authority. Subcontractors have to fulfill minimum standards, the minimum level of qualifications being those set out in EN15038/ISO17100. Sometimes the minimum requirements are much higher than ISO17100. For example a university degree plus 5 years of proven experience in the subject-matter in question.This is checked during contract performance by the contracting authority each time the contractor wants to replace its subcontractors. A contractor is not all... See more has to be approved by the contracting authority. Subcontractors have to fulfill minimum standards, the minimum level of qualifications being those set out in EN15038/ISO17100. Sometimes the minimum requirements are much higher than ISO17100. For example a university degree plus 5 years of proven experience in the subject-matter in question.This is checked during contract performance by the contracting authority each time the contractor wants to replace its subcontractors. A contractor is not allowed to work with subcontractors who don't fulfill the minimum requirements (University degree plus X years of experience with translating texts in subject-matter Y).
Furthermore, the quality of the translations delivered is checked by in-house revisers. If the quality is not ok, the agency/independent translator loses his position on the ranking list.
All this information is to be found in the tendering specifications published for each tendering procedure.
In addition, there is very strict public procurement legislation, which must be followed by all contracting authorities in the EU.The latest Directive transposed into national legislation of each Member State also provides that contractors have to comply with social, labor and fiscal legislation of the Member State in which they are established. If this legislation is violated, the contracting authority may terminate the framework contract.
So it's up to each vendor fulfilling the minimum requirements to make sure that they are adequately compensated by the agency. If you know of cases in which an agency uses subcontractors who don't fulfill the minimum requirements, you should bring these cases to the attention of the Commission's delegation in your Member State and also to the attention of your Member of the European Parliament.
[Edited at 2016-02-17 11:01 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-02-17 11:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 10:40
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Thanks, Maria, for quoting all the standards, provisions, and procedures. Despite all these long quotes and clarifications you provided, I still have no idea how I can check whether the translators doing actual work and getting paid match those who made them win the contract?
| | | | | Waste of time | Feb 17, 2016 |
The EU awards tenders based on "likely quality" and price, and a contractor's ranking after being awarded the contract will only drop if the EU Translation Center assesses an assignment as being of "unacceptably poor standard".
"Likely quality" is mainly judged by the composition of the team the contractor proposes. I do not think that the EU checks or even demands that this team is really used in the assignments, but even if they did, they would have no control over which team members ar... See more The EU awards tenders based on "likely quality" and price, and a contractor's ranking after being awarded the contract will only drop if the EU Translation Center assesses an assignment as being of "unacceptably poor standard".
"Likely quality" is mainly judged by the composition of the team the contractor proposes. I do not think that the EU checks or even demands that this team is really used in the assignments, but even if they did, they would have no control over which team members are used.
I once helped an agency win a EU tender. After successfully winning the tender, the agency asked me to lower my rates we had agreed on before. I declined and never received any work from this tender. About two years later I asked the agency to delete all my data in their files, but I never received a reply.
See more on how the EU awards tenders in my posts here: http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/227032-is_the_eu_pressing_rates_too-page2.html
So yes, helping an agency in the bid is a waste of time IMO, but bidding yourself (maybe with a small team) might not be.
(Maria's reply was not there when I started writing this. So the EU does demand that only members of the team initially proposed are used and that all additional members fulfil some standards. But it seems that they will not know which team members are used.)
[Edited at 2016-02-17 11:08 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-02-17 11:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| You can only check that | Feb 17, 2016 |
by asking the agency. Contracting authorities are not allowed to publish this kind of information. But you can rest assured that the agency is not allowed to use subcontractors whose qualifications are beneath the minimum level provided for in the tendering specifications. It all boils down to the fact that vendors, who fulfill the minimum standards, should not sell their work for low rates.
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Where can we see that quality ranking?
Of course they can use any subcontractors they wish. How would the EU check that? Once you win a contract, you can just use the cheapest translators available.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:40
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| More relevantly, does the EU check? | Feb 17, 2016 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
I still have no idea how I can check whether the translators doing actual work and getting paid match those who made them win the contract?
I think that's possibly an unrealistic expectation. Can you name any other services where you, as a private individual / taxpayer with no direct contractual relationship with a certain public institution, would be given access to that institution's contractors?
For example, do you have access to the records of the contractor that supplies surgical supplies to your local hospital? I suspect you don't. There are also potential issues of personal data protection to consider.
What concerns me more is whether the EU itself - which as the end client, undeniably has the right to ask - is carrying out any spot checks to verify compliance.
I quite like Mirko Mainardi's idea from earlier in the thread:
Have agencies specify who carried out what work/project/batch, then EU institutions could simply verify that info by mailing (not emailing) those translators with: "Please visit link X, insert code Y and let us know whether you translated the following: [source] > [translation]". How about the EU conducting a random check of one contractor every week on every EU job over X number of words?
Surely a system of this kind would not be too difficult to implement. It would provide a nice disincentive for agencies thinking about gaming the system. Maybe such mini-audits are already being conducted by the EU?
Regards
Dan
PS Thank you for that Maria
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 10:40
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Maria S. Loose, LL.M. wrote:
by asking the agency. Contracting authorities are not allowed to publish this kind of information. But you can rest assured that the agency is not allowed to use subcontractors whose qualifications are beneath the minimum level provided for in the tendering specifications. It all boils down to the fact that vendors, who fulfill the minimum standards, should not sell their work for low rates.
How can I check whether the agency is honest or not (if I ask them)? Oh wait, that's impossible, they do not reply to emails at all once they take my degree and files, so how can I ask them?
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Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 10:40
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| Not allowed to? | Feb 17, 2016 |
Thanks, Maria, for providing insights "from the other side".
It's all very well that contractors aren't allowed to change their subcontractors without the consent of the awarding authority, but I suspect that this is a paper tiger. Do the EU really check this, other than by having their contractors sign yet another form to that effect? Paper doesn't blush.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 10:40
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| There are ways, but is there willingness? | Feb 17, 2016 |
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
Where can we see that quality ranking?
Of course they can use any subcontractors they wish. How would the EU check that? Once you win a contract, you can just use the cheapest translators available.
EU can assign an internal monitor who will monitor the process, not that difficult. If a project is ongoing, they can simply email the members of teams once a week to check on the progress and touch the base (and check their identities).
| | | | | Not just the EU itself | Feb 17, 2016 |
Maybe the EU itself has systems in place to monitor quality, but they've also imposed the system on national institutions who don't.
That's got to be the bigger problem.
| | | | | Problems? No problems | Feb 17, 2016 |
Years ago, I applied for an EU tender via an agency. They got the job. So did I. They pay my regular rate, not a third world rate.
And I live happily ever after.
Cheers,
Hans
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| If I remember correctly | Feb 17, 2016 |
according to the tendering specifications published for one tendering procedure by the Commission, each translation had to be signed by the translator who had actually done the translation.
The new Directive on public procurement requires contracting authorities to find out about the identity of any subcontractors and to terminate the contract if the contractor or the subcontractor violates social, labor and fiscal legislation.
As far as transparency is concerned, the ... See more according to the tendering specifications published for one tendering procedure by the Commission, each translation had to be signed by the translator who had actually done the translation.
The new Directive on public procurement requires contracting authorities to find out about the identity of any subcontractors and to terminate the contract if the contractor or the subcontractor violates social, labor and fiscal legislation.
As far as transparency is concerned, the EU publishes the names of its contractors (not of its subcontractors) on its website. Unfortunately, the rates published are not as detailed as the ones published by the US government. Under our current legislation, detailed pricing information is considered to be a commercial secret and we are not allowed to publish it.
By the way, I don't work for the European Commission but for the European Council and we outsource very few translation services via the Translation Center. So I don't have any practical experience with tendering procedures for services other than health services and IT services. But I know the applicable legislation and I regularly read published tendering specifications, contract notices and award notices. I also know that anybody who submitted an offer may (and very often does) ask for feedback.
[Edited at 2016-02-17 13:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | option to choose betweem lowest price and best quality-price-ratio | Feb 17, 2016 |
Chris S wrote:
Maybe the EU itself has systems in place to monitor quality, but they've also imposed the system on national institutions who don't.
That's got to be the bigger problem.
The Directives provide for basically two award criteria: lowest price or best quality-price-ratio. It's up to each contracting authority to choose its award criteria.
In the absence of public procurement legislation contracts would be awarded based on corruption and other unethical behavior. Is that your preferred method of dealing with government agencies?
I remember the good old times, when there was no legislation in place. I learned my Dutch via professional training courses. Well, in those times (during the 80s), my Dutch teacher and all the other language teachers were spouses of EU civil servants. When my head of unit needed to outsource a translation he would call a friend or the wife of one of the permanent translators. Is it that system that you prefer?
[Edited at 2016-02-17 12:14 GMT]
| | | | | It's still the system we've got (UK) | Feb 17, 2016 |
Maria S. Loose, LL.M. wrote:
In the absence of public procurement legislation contracts would be awarded based on corruption and other unethical behavior. Is that your preferred method of dealing with government agencies?
You've only got to look at who consistently gets awarded contracts, and the relationships between MPs, former MPs, MPs spouses and the board members of the successful companies to realise that while they may be operating within the letter of the law, the whole privatisation/procurement merry-go-round in the financially moral vacuum rejoicing in the name of the "United" Kingdom (insert hollow laughter here) is rotten to the core when viewed by anyone with an modicum of ethical fibre.
'Twas no doubt ever thus, and continues to be so, (unforceable) directives from the equally morally and ethically bankrupt European "Union" or no.
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