| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | With whom I identify as a Pro on Proz.com and why there is a general problem Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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| Direct clients | Mar 5, 2016 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
I also know that direct clients often times don't have somebody in their company who will act as multilingual support manager, that's why they head for agencies. Perhaps big corporations do, but medium-size businesses, I doubt it.
I wouldn't be so sure. For instance, there are lots of small/mid-sized software developers, service providers or other types of businesses that do have some internal PMs/editors who "manage" small pools of freelance translators (and I am saying this because I have some clients like that and came across others with a similar internal organization). It's all a matter of finding them, while, Matthias' idea is basically geared so that there would be more of them who find "us"...
About paying 1k+ worth of membership... Well, would you invest such an amount without any kind of warranty?
Also, how do you know ProZ doesn't already have a sufficient amount of "resources" to invest at the current levels of membership? (And I'm sure no one is thinking about advertising campaigns on national media, but rather targeted efforts in industry-specific areas)
| | | | Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 00:34
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure. For instance, there are lots of small/mid-sized software developers, service providers or other types of businesses that do have some internal PMs/editors who "manage" small pools of freelance translators (and I am saying this because I have some clients like that and came across others with a similar internal organization). It's all a matter of finding them, while, Matthias' idea is basically geared so that there would be more of them who find "us"...
Oh yes, of course, I also had at least 5 such clients, but I have not found them on ProZ. We are talking about ProZ here right?
Well, regarding your other comment, ProZ has membership fees and a lot of ads that are appearing when I am browsing the site (ads by translation agencies/whoever who paid for those ads). If they drop the agencies, we will have to make up for that ad money through our high membership fee, but for us it will pay off to have zero agencies and just fully direct clients on the site. I am not saying that my idea isn't completely dumb, but it's just an idea.
I guess it is easier to charge money for ads, rather than to charge money for more complex marketing efforts. I say again, ProZ may have their internal reasons for all this, I am sure they did analysis already on multiple levels.
| | | | Georgia Morg (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:34
Portuguese to English
| "Hobby Translator"? | Mar 5, 2016 |
I think the above term is very disdainful and does some of us a great disservice. I do not rely on my work as a translator to pay the bills but does that make me any less good or any less eligible to be a member of ProZ? I had a career in teaching before I decided to try my hand at translating. I did the distance modules at City University, London and took the Institute of Linguists' Diploma in Translation in January 2011. I was thrilled to get Distinctions in my three subjects, Since then I hav... See more I think the above term is very disdainful and does some of us a great disservice. I do not rely on my work as a translator to pay the bills but does that make me any less good or any less eligible to be a member of ProZ? I had a career in teaching before I decided to try my hand at translating. I did the distance modules at City University, London and took the Institute of Linguists' Diploma in Translation in January 2011. I was thrilled to get Distinctions in my three subjects, Since then I have worked when I am free and when I feel I like it. I don't accept very low rates because my time is valuable to me, but I sometimes accept rates on the low side if a job is particularly interesting. At the moment I am translating parts of a guide book to Spain (from Portuguese) and I am enjoying it very much, but I took a cut in my normal rate when they asked as I thought it would be enjoyable (and it is).
I do not compete with most of you because I do not use CAT tools. I am slow, but very thorough. Some clients like that and like my academic experience. But please do not call me a "hobby translator"! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 00:34
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Two intermediaries. | Mar 5, 2016 |
So we basically have two intermediaries. ProZ and then translation agency. A long path indeed to the direct client.
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| No rates on job offers? | Mar 5, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
But there's no specific mention made of remuneration in job posts so how can they get any impression? If you do find rates quoted, report the job to staff using the specific button at the bottom of the post. Paying members can choose to display the client's proposed budget, but only they can see it (if they choose to), and they don't have to be bound by it. Some casual company owner looking to enter a new market abroad isn't likely to be a paying member.
When did this happen? I remember seeing LOTS of job offers where the poster specified a rate (usually very low) and the only thing I remember seeing was a small text box saying something like "These rates are below the minimum rate charged by X% of ProZ users" (sorry, don't remember the exact wording).
Just this morning I saw an ad which mentioned €0.035 per word and €6.00 per page. I guess it was closed by site staff because it mentioned those rates both in the message body and in the budget section, stating that ONLY those willing to accept those rates need apply.
The fact that rates are mentioned in the "Budget and payment details" section or elsewhere really seems just a detail to me, as those who are allowed to quote (be they translators or profiles linked to corporate users) will definitely see that, and that alone has a negative impact, IMO. Just think about the endless threads about rates, and the comments of people asking how much (or... how little) they should be asking...
I also remember reading an "idea" proposed by someone back in 2010, which received 280 votes and was still rejected by ProZ. It was "Putting a "Report Unprofessional Low rate" button on the page of the posted job." - https://proz.uservoice.com/forums/37172-proz-com-ideas/suggestions/624429-putting-a-report-unprofessional-low-rate-button
| | | | | Proz does involve end clients... | Mar 5, 2016 |
... as you can register as such, so I don´t think their business model is bound to agencies and SDL only, provided they would show some more flexibility to bring freelancers and end clients together. There is still some room for improvement. I did not claim proz should turn down working with agencies.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 00:34
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Just a comment... | Mar 5, 2016 |
Matthias, I was just independently thinking about those ideas and what ways they could be turned around. Nothing to do with your comments, they are not related to them. : )
I have never been contacted for a project by a direct client on ProZ, nor have I ever seen one advertising on job board (it is always some form of agency or intermediary). They may exist in theory, but in my case, not in practice, when it comes to ProZ. Or they may exist in other language pairs on ProZ or for co... See more Matthias, I was just independently thinking about those ideas and what ways they could be turned around. Nothing to do with your comments, they are not related to them. : )
I have never been contacted for a project by a direct client on ProZ, nor have I ever seen one advertising on job board (it is always some form of agency or intermediary). They may exist in theory, but in my case, not in practice, when it comes to ProZ. Or they may exist in other language pairs on ProZ or for corporate members, again that doesn't relate to me.
I do have 5-10 direct clients revolving in the past 5 years, but I have not acquired them through ProZ, not even close to it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | There are, not many but there are | Mar 5, 2016 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
I have never been contacted for a project by a direct client on ProZ, nor have I ever seen one advertising on job board (it is always some form of agency or intermediary). They may exist in theory, but in my case, not in practice, when it comes to ProZ. Or they may exist in other language pairs on ProZ or for corporate members, again that doesn't relate to me.
Yes they exists in other language pairs, from time to time I am contacted from France, Italy and Spain, for example.
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 00:34
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| I supposed so. | Mar 5, 2016 |
Angie Garbarino wrote: Lingua 5B wrote:
I have never been contacted for a project by a direct client on ProZ, nor have I ever seen one advertising on job board (it is always some form of agency or intermediary). They may exist in theory, but in my case, not in practice, when it comes to ProZ. Or they may exist in other language pairs on ProZ or for corporate members, again that doesn't relate to me. Yes they exists in other language pairs, from time to time I am contacted from France, Italy and Spain, for example.
I supposed they might exist in such languages, or German and Chinese perhaps. But even then, they will amount for a very small proportion of jobs (my presumption). The site is very much agency-oriented, which I will not label as this or that, it's just their business style/model.
| | | | | That's exactly the point... | Mar 5, 2016 |
Lingua 5B wrote: Mirko Mainardi wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure. For instance, there are lots of small/mid-sized software developers, service providers or other types of businesses that do have some internal PMs/editors who "manage" small pools of freelance translators (and I am saying this because I have some clients like that and came across others with a similar internal organization). It's all a matter of finding them, while, Matthias' idea is basically geared so that there would be more of them who find "us"...
Oh yes, of course, I also had at least 5 such clients, but I have not found them on ProZ. We are talking about ProZ here right?
I mean, if there were hordes of direct clients fighting among themselves in order to find translators here, we wouldn't be having this conversation, which, I believe, stems precisely from the fact that, despite there being many end clients who don't use agencies for their translation needs, not (nearly) as many of them are using ProZ in order to satisfy those needs (which is bad for us as translators using ProZ).
And, by the way, since we agree on the fact that such clients do exist, are not as rare as unicorns, and are already bypassing agencies to directly work with freelancers (only found elsewhere...), there actually wouldn't be any conflict with agencies' interests and their own client base (IMO).
At any rate, I actually was (privately) approached by some such clients here on ProZ, but definitely not too many, which again brings us to square 1.
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When I first joined Proz I saw quite a number of Indian agencies posting here with very low rates, they appear to have disappeared, at least in my language pair? I consider this a good sign. However, I have been approached twice directly by such agencies in the last two weeks.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 00:34
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Requests on ProZ | Mar 5, 2016 |
I did have requests on ProZ from businesses other than translation agencies, but they were always some kind of intermediary. For instance, if a marketing agency approaches me because they require a translation provider, I don't see them as direct client, because they are an intermediary.
Even those who report being approached by direct clients on here, they say it only happened very rarely.
And in regards with whether direct clients dealing with translators directly are... See more I did have requests on ProZ from businesses other than translation agencies, but they were always some kind of intermediary. For instance, if a marketing agency approaches me because they require a translation provider, I don't see them as direct client, because they are an intermediary.
Even those who report being approached by direct clients on here, they say it only happened very rarely.
And in regards with whether direct clients dealing with translators directly are as rare as unicorns, I don't know the stats really, whether there is a bigger number of those that prefer using translation agencies or those that prefer direct approach (but I am sure people in translation agency business did the analysis/stats).
Would there be that many translation agencies around if many/most direct clients preferred direct approach?
[Edited at 2016-03-05 11:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:34
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Successful full-timers have been tested in battle... | Mar 5, 2016 |
Georgia Morgan wrote:
But please do not call me a "hobby translator"!
I agree that the connotation is not positive, but surely there is a grain of truth in it.
Having done both, I do think there is a significant difference between somebody who translates for fun or pocket money and somebody who translates because she or her children will face extreme hardship if she doesn't.
While many part-timers can presumably do a good job in favourable circumstances - you state that you cherry pick projects - I would say that a successful professional has proven that they can consistently do a good job in unfavourable circumstances.
Therefore, if I had a lot riding on it I would go for the full-timer who has more to lose than a part-timer who isn't dependent on his work to put food on the table.
I think the same concept would apply to most professions, not just translation.
Of course, we don't have the right (or the means) to ban part-timers from the industry. Both have a right to compete.
Regards
Dan
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 00:34
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Yes, and cherry picking | Mar 5, 2016 |
Dan Lucas wrote: Georgia Morgan wrote:
But please do not call me a "hobby translator"! I agree that the connotation is not positive, but surely there is a grain of truth in it. Having done both, I do think there is a significant difference between somebody who translates for fun or pocket money and somebody who translates because she or her children will face extreme hardship if she doesn't. While many part-timers can presumably do a good job in favourable circumstances - you state that you cherry pick projects - I would say that a successful professional has proven that they can consistently do a good job in unfavourable circumstances. Therefore, if I had a lot riding on it I would go for the full-timer who has more to lose than a part-timer who isn't dependent on his work to put food on the table. I think the same concept would apply to most professions, not just translation. Of course, we don't have the right (or the means) to ban part-timers from the industry. Both have a right to compete. Regards Dan
If you take a look at the history or literary works, you will see that the most widely read and known authors were people from upper-class families who could just sit and write, write, write about what they like and wish to write and enjoy, while their bills were taken care of by someone else.
Granted, in more modern times, say the mid 20th century, there were famous authors from middle or low class families who would support themselves by writing articles for newspapers (always reporting it was not an enjoyable work for them, but only for the bills), but even in this era the rich authors had more money to marketing their work (and get their name and word more widely spread).
Sorry for the off-topic, it was just about the cherry picking thing.
[Edited at 2016-03-05 11:56 GMT]
| | | | | Envision this... | Mar 5, 2016 |
A Western tourist goes to a country where everything is written in, say, some strange characters, of which s/he can understand nothing. They have a general idea of what the local currency is worth, and fortunately the numbers still look the same.
Upon leaving the hotel, someone hands them a pamphlet created by a smart storekeeper. It has pictures of varied garments, bedclothes, towels, etc. The prices shown beside each in local currency are unbelievably cheap, worth buying and takin... See more A Western tourist goes to a country where everything is written in, say, some strange characters, of which s/he can understand nothing. They have a general idea of what the local currency is worth, and fortunately the numbers still look the same.
Upon leaving the hotel, someone hands them a pamphlet created by a smart storekeeper. It has pictures of varied garments, bedclothes, towels, etc. The prices shown beside each in local currency are unbelievably cheap, worth buying and taking home at least a couple of large suitcases bulging with them, if the quality is minimally passable.
Our hero hails a taxicab and shows the pamphlet to the driver, pointing to their self and to that piece of paper. After a relatively short drive, the car stops in front of... a full-service laundry shop!
 
This is what we have here on the Proz jobs board. Too many outsourcers (80% according to the aforementioned Pareto's Law) see low prices, hence big profits, get translation jobs, and then go searching for people to do them for these prices, regardless of anything else.
No point here in delving again into the numerous variables that (should) play a role in determining a translator's rates.
All I have is to do is draw the picture:
"No, massah. We don't sell no clothes here. We only wash clothes that people bring in."
[Edited at 2016-03-05 12:05 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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