| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | With whom I identify as a Pro on Proz.com and why there is a general problem Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
|
|---|
Diana Coada (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:59
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Dan Lucas wrote: Georgia Morgan wrote:
But please do not call me a "hobby translator"! I agree that the connotation is not positive, but surely there is a grain of truth in it. Having done both, I do think there is a significant difference between somebody who translates for fun or pocket money and somebody who translates because she or her children will face extreme hardship if she doesn't. While many part-timers can presumably do a good job in favourable circumstances - you state that you cherry pick projects - I would say that a successful professional has proven that they can consistently do a good job in unfavourable circumstances. Therefore, if I had a lot riding on it I would go for the full-timer who has more to lose than a part-timer who isn't dependent on his work to put food on the table. I think the same concept would apply to most professions, not just translation. Of course, we don't have the right (or the means) to ban part-timers from the industry. Both have a right to compete. Regards Dan
Are you saying that if I choose to work for 3 hours a day at a professional rate and cherry pick my projects rather than for 8 hours a day for £0.04 a word I'm a lousy translator? Are you saying that if I have a part-time job as a tutor or teaching fellow at a university or local college I'm less of a translator?
I think some may be forgetting what freelancing stands for. I hope it still means I can choose my working hours as I please.
| | | | | When re-reading Sheila´s post... | Mar 5, 2016 |
...I´m pretty sure she meant moonlighters of any kind, who are indeed a real threat for the business...
| | | | Kristina Cosumano (X)
Germany
Local time: 23:59
German to English
| Agree. However... | Mar 5, 2016 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
...I´m pretty sure she meant moonlighters of any kind, who are indeed a real threat for the business...
The job market is changing a lot, and there are going to be more and more of us who fall in between the old categories as we move further into a gig economy. I for one am translating to pay bills, but not just translating. I help my husband with his business and my main "certified" profession (which may or may not continue) is something else altogether. I am a freelancer, and cannot be more than that today.
I would think that the "hobby translator" is less and less of a thing as more and more people are finding themselves out of work, or underemployed.
I understand the reasons why the original poster and others want to draw lines, but I am not sure those are the right lines to draw (and I am trying hard not to assume he means people like me, although he may very well.)
| | | | | "They" would not answer... | Mar 5, 2016 |
Kristina Cosumano wrote:
I understand the reasons why the original poster and others want to draw lines, but I am not sure those are the right lines to draw (and I am trying hard not to assume he means people like me, although he may very well.)
As Bernhard already made clear in his post, "they", who are claimed to be responsible, would neither read nor listen to his points. But some of us are indeed responsible for the declining process: Two weeks ago I was offered to "help out" an agency (initial "ressource" suddenly became sick, but I assume he/she was just unable to cope with the job) with a very term prone job dealing with a lot of technical specifications. I stated my price according to that specific nature, they said "No thank you, we found another solution with one of our freelancers" and next morning I could see a job posting at proz offered by a freelancer (yes, it was a freelancer!): He/she then tried to outsource the same job for peanuts (0.06 €, I could identify some brand terms in the post and match them with their sample the agency has sent me the day before).* In return I informed the PM of the agency and was immediately granted the job, and to my conditions.
I have more examples in stock from one-person-outsourcers, who act as third or even fourth party contractors. I wonder whether I should do the same with some of the agency jobs I regularly get and go fishing instead 
[Edited at 2016-03-05 15:27 GMT]
*I forgot to mention that already six persons had already applied for the job...and for some reasons it was automatically stated I "would not meet the necessary requirements"...
[Edited at 2016-03-05 15:58 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
| Other industries | Mar 5, 2016 |
From what I gather, lots of other freelance sites have the same problem. I know a few graphic designers and cameramen/people working in film production who work on similar types of sites and see the same results. The jobs visibly on offer are 80% mush and the people who get most out of the sites are the those that understand how to use its other features and even the job boards in a particular way to get work on unadvertised higher-value projects.
It was actually through talking to ... See more From what I gather, lots of other freelance sites have the same problem. I know a few graphic designers and cameramen/people working in film production who work on similar types of sites and see the same results. The jobs visibly on offer are 80% mush and the people who get most out of the sites are the those that understand how to use its other features and even the job boards in a particular way to get work on unadvertised higher-value projects.
It was actually through talking to people in other industries that I worked out how to use Proz.
So perhaps that's just how these models always end up? (Perhaps.)
Speaking to people in other industries that need translation, I'm not convinced the ideal of them posting their jobs here directly is even a possibility. They're too pressed for time and removed from the industry to wind their way up here. If a translator can explain to them that this is the best place to come to, that translator is far more likely to organize their translations themselves.
Also, some people can't afford and therefore don't need high-end translations and so there will always need to be "bottom feeders". I used to sell whisky for a living. I much preferred introducing people to single cask bottlings, rare finishes or newly-discovered old whisky. But someone still needed to sell Jack & Coke in the clubs. I was always just glad that wasn't me. That was someone else with different priorities from me (and normally a higher tolerance for alcohol). Sure, maybe the fact that you can buy Jack & Coke for 5.50 makes people less likely to pay 20 for a great whisky. But, in that industry anyway, it seems to have the opposite effect. It makes people want to pay more to stand out from the crowd.
Blah, blah, blah, but practically, what can Proz do? Go to trade fairs and advertize, etc? Most non-translation professionals I've met cite Transperfect as having the most presence in their market. That really doesn't bode well. ▲ Collapse
| | | |
Lingua 5B wrote:
Matthias, I was just independently thinking about those ideas and what ways they could be turned around. Nothing to do with your comments, they are not related to them. : )
No worries, please, my English is a bit harsh, I know, but perhaps we can hear what proz would have to say to my suggestion:
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:59
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The fundamental issue in our industry | Mar 5, 2016 |
Kristina Cosumano wrote:
...
I would think that the "hobby translator" is less and less of a thing as more and more people are finding themselves out of work, or underemployed.
I understand the reasons why the original poster and others want to draw lines, but I am not sure those are the right lines to draw (and I am trying hard not to assume he means people like me, although he may very well.)
Being out of work or underemployed is no excuse for working for unacceptable pay when you provide services for which you have to be highly educated (self- or otherwise) and highly skilled.
In which other industry do members get so desperate or act without any care (it's so much fun!) that they work for inadequate rates and keep accepting lower and lower remunerations but in ours? Well, maybe in unskilled occupations. The problem is that certainly a majority of people accepting jobs on and through these translation job portals and even through direct contacts via these portals seem to think they work in an unskilled occupation and have no other choice than to work for as little as possible. No lawyer will stoop that low, no physician, no technician, no mechanic, etc. These are all established professions with established skills and prices. No pilot will fly you for 10 dollars an hour. As a professional translator with excellent language skills, you are not an unskilled worker. On the contrary, you provide highly sophisticated work, comparable to other well-paid professions.
The problem in our industry is a fundamental one. It's not a community of like-minded individuals, it's not an industry where all its members adhere to a general code of conduct. There are best practices/practical guidelines guidelines, even Proz.com suggests them (although they don't spell out some of the important aspects). But they are not followed by a majority of users (I dare say). It's not even an industry with healthy competition. Instead, we see a huge number of unscrupulous agencies getting language services from people who work under crazy conditions, with regard to payment as well as payment terms (30 -90 days!) "Walking among them" as a real pro is like being an invisible man/woman. I don't even want to be seen among such people.
I for one do not compromise on price for skills and knowledge that simply deserve to be paid accordingly. Why should I? It would be a waste of my entire education and experience.
I know that's what makes a real pro. Anything else isn't professional and it wouldn't be acceptable to me.
| | | | CafeTran Training (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 23:59
|
|
|
Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:59
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not really.
The article you quoted is mainly about the costs of becoming a pilot. It also references positive changes in the industry (see below). In any case, show me a pilot who flies for 10 dollars an hour.
I wouldn't recommend flying with "cheap" airlines anyway.
Quote from the article:
"It's probably not illegal, but is it something we want to endorse as a society? I don't think it's right to have pilots pay all the costs." He added that, in addition, Ryanair pilots are mostly self-employed and get fewer hours in winter months.
A spokesman for easyJet announced earlier this month that it will now underwrite trainees' loans, offering better terms and financial advice. "For the early years... your family are supporting you as it is expensive to train," he said. "But you quickly earn a significant salary and the early sacrifice pays off. Because we are a growing airline, our guys can become captains within six or seven years, with a minimum pay of £120,000."
Robin Kiely, a spokesman for Ryanair, said: "Since Ryanair only recruits fully qualified pilots, no Ryanair pilots 'pay to fly'. These pilot union claims are simply untrue."
Philip Landau, an employment lawyer at Landau Zeffertt Weir, said: "There's no obligation on an employer to provide the payment for your training qualification. Many do, but it's largely a matter of contract between employer and employee. If there is a custom and practice for paying for training, they could be bound by this as an implied term."
Meanwhile, paying pilots as self-employed operators may soon end. A spokesman for HM Revenue & Customs said: "Employment status is never a matter of personal choice and is always dictated by the specific facts. When the employment relationship does not accurately reflect the underlying reality of the relationship... we intervene."
| | | | The Misha
Local time: 17:59
Russian to English
+ ...
| ProZ should? Really? | Mar 5, 2016 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
Yes: Proz.com should take measures to...
It always baffles me when someone insists it is someone else's responsibility - ProZ's, some government ministry's, the chamber of commerce's, you name it - to make sure their business is successful. This place is but a venue, an electronic flea market (and I do not mean this as a derogatory epithet, not at all; I've done some of the best deals of my life at flea markets) if you will. It's what YOU do AT this market that matters, rather than what the market itself is doing. If you cannot find what you are looking for at this one particular market, you simply move to another one. That's it. No drama.
Oh, and BTW, to answer that question, no, I wouldn't pay a grand no matter what they do at this place. Heck, I don't even bother paying what they are currently asking. I don't do any business here. I come to this place strictly for entertainment, and like all the best things in life that part is free.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:59
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Professional work for professional pay. | Mar 5, 2016 |
Georgie Scott wrote:
From what I gather, lots of other freelance sites have the same problem. I know a few graphic designers and cameramen/people working in film production who work on similar types of sites and see the same results. The jobs visibly on offer are 80% mush and the people who get most out of the sites are the those that understand how to use its other features and even the job boards in a particular way to get work on unadvertised higher-value projects.
80% mush is just that, mush, in terms of pay. But somehow it gets done by people. Because the jobs keep coming. I see you are talking about other "freelance" professions. If what you say is increasingly happening, it goes to show that even in these professions, many people are willing to forget what their work is worth.
As far as the ones are concerned that "understand how to use its other features and even job boards in a particular way to get work on unadvertised higher-value projects," more power to them. I don't see much opportunity for that here. Emphasis on "continuous flow of acceptable projects."
Georgie Scott wrote:
So perhaps that's just how these models always end up? (Perhaps.)
Certainly, if their design allows it. That means it's not getting any better, at least for a while, until the design itself proves to be inadequate for those who came up with it and maintain it.
Georgie Scott wrote:
Also, some people can't afford and therefore don't need high-end translations and so there will always need to be "bottom feeders". I used to sell whisky for a living. I much preferred introducing people to single cask bottlings, rare finishes or newly-discovered old whisky. But someone still needed to sell Jack & Coke in the clubs. I was always just glad that wasn't me. That was someone else with different priorities from me (and normally a higher tolerance for alcohol). Sure, maybe the fact that you can buy Jack & Coke for 5.50 makes people less likely to pay 20 for a great whisky. But, in that industry anyway, it seems to have the opposite effect. It makes people want to pay more to stand out from the crowd.
I am much more concerned about people who provide high-end translations to bottom-feeders. They're the ones that are duped, let themselves be exploited and ruin the market.
[Edited at 2016-03-05 16:42 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:59
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | And another thing ... aren't you running a business? | Mar 5, 2016 |
Just another point.
I see my work as running a business. I am not hoping to find some agency that wants to "hire" me to do a great job for measly pay.
I designed my business to attract clients who are interested in professional work for adequate fees. I am afraid that's also something often lacking in our industry, the business-mindedness a translator has to have to make it work. I have great respect for colleagues who try to build/run a professional business because it... See more Just another point.
I see my work as running a business. I am not hoping to find some agency that wants to "hire" me to do a great job for measly pay.
I designed my business to attract clients who are interested in professional work for adequate fees. I am afraid that's also something often lacking in our industry, the business-mindedness a translator has to have to make it work. I have great respect for colleagues who try to build/run a professional business because it's not easy at all, especially today. And it's what we should adhere to. That would be another line to draw between pro and non-pro.
[Edited at 2016-03-05 17:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 22:59
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| My own definition of 'hobby translators' | Mar 5, 2016 |
As I didn't define the term I can't really see how individual people are identifying with it, but I'll give my own personal definition here.
There are countries where registration as a freelancer costs nothing, or there's a flourishing black market or workarounds so that you get to keep every cent you earn. Very many of their residents who "can English", or who speak two languages while maybe having appalling writing skills, register on free sites such as ProZ.com and the more gener... See more As I didn't define the term I can't really see how individual people are identifying with it, but I'll give my own personal definition here.
There are countries where registration as a freelancer costs nothing, or there's a flourishing black market or workarounds so that you get to keep every cent you earn. Very many of their residents who "can English", or who speak two languages while maybe having appalling writing skills, register on free sites such as ProZ.com and the more general freelancing ones and start quoting for jobs, posing as professional freelance translators. I'm thinking of people who have no training or experience of translation and rarely any in-depth bilingual terminology knowledge. They aren't interested in being professional translators at all; they're interested in earning a few euros/dollars. It could be that they have too much spare time on their hands (active retirees, for example), or they might have a little spare time and a wish/need to earn a little pocket money (e.g. students, parents at home, or those working part-time), or they might be full-time salaried workers still not managing to make ends meet and desperate for even just a few euros extra to bridge the end-of-month gap. What is common to all who fall within my own personal definition is that they are happy to accept just a very few cents per word, regardless of the market rate. Some will no doubt provide absolute rubbish, while others (particularly the retirees who have a wealth of life experience and plenty of time for research) might provide great quality.
So, in my own personal view, an active retiree or someone of independent means who treats the job seriously and produces quality work at or near market rates, while refusing to undercut full-time translators, is NOT a hobby translator. It may not make sense to everyone, but that's my definition. I personally don't work full-time, mainly because my husband is retired and our marriage wouldn't work if I was, but partly because I don't need to financially. But I NEVER work for less than the market rate (as quoted in my profile) unless there's a real business reason for a reduction; and I'm not talking personal reasons here as I have turned down some very interesting jobs at low rates.
Lingua 5B wrote:
I have never been contacted for a project by a direct client on ProZ, nor have I ever seen one advertising on job board (it is always some form of agency or intermediary). They may exist in theory, but in my case, not in practice, when it comes to ProZ.
I don't really see why you'd exclude marketing/communications agencies in this case. If ProZ.com has somehow managed to attract these clients - who are outside of the translation industry - then that's mission accomplished, surely?
Here's a fact: Since mid-2012 I've landed jobs here on ProZ.com (either through the board or the directory) from four private individuals (a couple being paid for by their universities), one marketing agency, six limited companies and one NGO. They're in seven different countries on two continents and none have any connection with the translation industry. All except one paid/pay my normal hourly rate, the exception being for a book with a very flexible deadline that I used as a filler. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 23:59
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
The Misha wrote:
Oh, and BTW, to answer that question, no, I wouldn't pay a grand no matter what they do at this place. Heck, I don't even bother paying what they are currently asking. I don't do any business here. I come to this place strictly for entertainment, and like all the best things in life that part is free.
Free? Are you aware of how much it costs to run a site like this? The costs are paid, the memberships are paid (I paid mine), so it's definitely not free. Someone else has paid for your "entertainment" but you just failed to see it. : ) I mean no offence to you, I am just presenting to you some realistic and existing costs.
Sheila, marketing agency provides marketing service to different third parties (one or often times more than one client). If somebody from that actual company the marketing agency works for contacted me directly (internal contact) and asked me to be their contractor for marketing copies, now that's a direct client.
[Edited at 2016-03-05 17:03 GMT]
| | | | | Someone (somebody...) perhaps... | Mar 5, 2016 |
The Misha wrote:
It always baffles me when someone insists it is someone else's responsibility - ProZ's, some government ministry's, the chamber of commerce's, you name it - to make sure their business is successful.
... but not me: please cite me correctly. I still regard this platform as a wonderful opportunity and I would be annoyed being forced to divert my efforts between multiple platforms, and there seems to be a strong tendency that freelencers already take part and pay for multiple platforms. Proz can be improved and that was my suggestion. I do not make proz responsible for anything, as you could have read, but the so-called market spoilt as described by Bernhard.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » With whom I identify as a Pro on Proz.com and why there is a general problem | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
| | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
