| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | With whom I identify as a Pro on Proz.com and why there is a general problem Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
|
|---|
| I don't know if this has been mentioned | Mar 5, 2016 |
It has become increasingly popular to accept 0.05 per word and then translate as fast as humanly possible to put up with that rate. The result can be something like 500 or even 1000 words per hour. Then, the translator will say: I earn 50 dollars an hour.
| | | | | With what pills? | Mar 6, 2016 |
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
It has become increasingly popular to accept 0.05 per word and then translate as fast as humanly possible to put up with that rate. The result can be something like 500 or even 1000 words per hour. Then, the translator will say: I earn 50 dollars an hour.
Interesting business model and I confirm to have spoken to a highly degreed proz "colleague" (a couple of years ago) who exactly practised what you described, and she was proud on her output (she claimed she could translate 800 w/h; no matter what subject, of course). I wonder for how long she was able doing so and what pills helped her.
[Edited at 2016-03-06 08:08 GMT]
| | | | | Increasingly popular? | Mar 6, 2016 |
I accepted such a rate when starting out because I didn't know any better, in addition I worked extremely slowly.
... but I soon realised that this was not a very good business model!
| | | | | Perhaps there will always be a certain percentage... | Mar 6, 2016 |
... of freelancers accepting those rates at the beginning of their careers, with outsourcers, who have been specialised to look out exactly for that type of translators only. When I was starting in 2007 / 2008 via proz and as soon as I have gained some KudoZ points, I was flooded with these low paid offers, accompanied by rude letters from very strange outsourcers, if not freelancers by themselves. I could understand that people, who just temporarily have to finance certain stages of thei... See more ... of freelancers accepting those rates at the beginning of their careers, with outsourcers, who have been specialised to look out exactly for that type of translators only. When I was starting in 2007 / 2008 via proz and as soon as I have gained some KudoZ points, I was flooded with these low paid offers, accompanied by rude letters from very strange outsourcers, if not freelancers by themselves. I could understand that people, who just temporarily have to finance certain stages of their lifes, don´t or cannot care for better paid jobs, especially when they are moonlighters. That´s why there will always be a certain pressure in the market coming from that dark corner of our business.
Gabriele Demuth wrote: I accepted such a rate when starting out because I didn't know any better, in addition I worked extremely slowly. ... but I soon realised that this was not a very good business model!
[Edited at 2016-03-06 09:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 06:22
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Derailed topic; now just the usual rant | Mar 6, 2016 |
With your post titled "The fundamental issue in our industry" you derailed your own thread, Bernhard, and put it onto the "never-ending rant about rates" route. We've been there; done that.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 07:22
French to English
| the best things in life are free | Mar 6, 2016 |
Lingua 5B wrote: The Misha wrote:
Oh, and BTW, to answer that question, no, I wouldn't pay a grand no matter what they do at this place. Heck, I don't even bother paying what they are currently asking. I don't do any business here. I come to this place strictly for entertainment, and like all the best things in life that part is free.
Free? Are you aware of how much it costs to run a site like this? The costs are paid, the memberships are paid (I paid mine), so it's definitely not free. Someone else has paid for your "entertainment" but you just failed to see it. : ) I mean no offence to you, I am just presenting to you some realistic and existing costs.
I've adblocked my computer but I believe that normally anyone using the website gets to see the advertising. The more of us pro translators (or even hobby translators for that) come here, the more advertisers are willing to pay.
I personally have never bothered with membership here either and come purely for entertainment and to hang out with like-minded people, Proz lets me do so, so they obviously don't need my money. I often give noobs advice and have been thanked warmly for my contributions. So I don't see myself as a freeloader at all.
(although Sheila is definitely the kindest, most patient and most helpful of all those who click on the threads entitled "zero qualifications zero experience but I can English how do I become a translator")
| | | | | But... derailed from what? | Mar 6, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
With your post titled "The fundamental issue in our industry" you derailed your own thread, Bernhard, and put it onto the "never-ending rant about rates" route. We've been there; done that.
To me, it seems rates were an integral part of the discussion from the start, since this aspect was expressly brought forth by the OP as the main (actually the only) concrete example of what he considers to be "professional business":
I can only identify with colleagues and work with translation agencies active here that expect/pay reasonable, professional rates ...
Many clients come here and check the job board for sure and get a completely wrong impression of what professional translation services entail and what constitutes reasonable remuneration. Reasonable, not unreasonably high fees!
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 07:22
French to English
| Hobbies and Dobbies | Mar 6, 2016 |
Georgia Morgan wrote:
I think the above term is very disdainful and does some of us a great disservice. I do not rely on my work as a translator to pay the bills but does that make me any less good or any less eligible to be a member of ProZ? I had a career in teaching before I decided to try my hand at translating. I did the distance modules at City University, London and took the Institute of Linguists' Diploma in Translation in January 2011. I was thrilled to get Distinctions in my three subjects, Since then I have worked when I am free and when I feel I like it. I don't accept very low rates because my time is valuable to me, but I sometimes accept rates on the low side if a job is particularly interesting. At the moment I am translating parts of a guide book to Spain (from Portuguese) and I am enjoying it very much, but I took a cut in my normal rate when they asked as I thought it would be enjoyable (and it is).
I do not compete with most of you because I do not use CAT tools. I am slow, but very thorough. Some clients like that and like my academic experience. But please do not call me a "hobby translator"!
Hi Georgia,
I was discussing swimming with a friend a few years ago and when I told him the number of lengths I did and the time it took me to do them, he scoffed and called me a "Sunday swimmer". I just laughed and agreed, after all I only ever went swimming of a Sunday. His put-down went nowhere, because my swimming speed was of no consequence to me, I just wanted to improve my circulation to the point that I could stand to scrape my potatoes, and had achieved just that.
So you have qualifications to translate professionally and are fortunate to be in a position to cherry-pick. That doesn't mean you produce rubbish and nobody (least of all Sheila) is accusing you of anything.
I also cherry-pick my translations. I am fortunate to have a life-partner with a Midas touch so we never have to scrimp or save. Maybe that makes me a hobby translator too, but I don't mind what anyone calls me.
So I only ever do translations that interest me. I'm interested in loads of stuff so there's plenty of variety. However, being interested in loads of stuff means I like to *do* loads of stuff too, so I'll only take on translations that pay well enough for me to be able to spend freely without having to beg my partner for money. He'd always give me what I want but I have my pride and need my independence.
And also, I only compromise on my price when there's a very good reason. I did a book for a pittance because I felt that it was very important for that book to be published in English. I'm currently working on a press pack for a couple of artists who will pay me back in kind by dog-sitting. But these projects come through friends, I would never do that for someone contacting me via Proz.
I heard of the wife of a high-up diplomat who does translations to offset the boredom of living among ex-pats in a strange country and never being able to put down roots. She charges €0.02 and apparently sometimes forgets to send in her bill. I have proofread her work and criticised it heavily, but the agency still uses her because she's so cheap. They had to find someone else to proofread though.
This person is precisely the kind of person I think the expression "hobby translator" refers to. And since she accepts those ridiculous rates, others who are trying to earn a living and are rather low on self-confidence find themselves forced into a slavish relationship with agencies. Hence my title (which I'm rather proud of for once!)
| | |
|
|
|
Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 06:22
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I rather thought it was specific | Mar 6, 2016 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
But... derailed from what?
Wasn't it supposed to be about ProZ.com? Haven't we had enough generalised low-rate rants from Bernhard? They're getting very repetitive.
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 01:22
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Full-timers vs. part-timers | Mar 6, 2016 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
I do think there is a significant difference between somebody who translates for fun or pocket money and somebody who translates because she or her children will face extreme hardship if she doesn't.
While many part-timers can presumably do a good job in favourable circumstances - you state that you cherry pick projects - I would say that a successful professional has proven that they can consistently do a good job in unfavourable circumstances.
Therefore, if I had a lot riding on it I would go for the full-timer who has more to lose than a part-timer who isn't dependent on his work to put food on the table.
I think the same concept would apply to most professions, not just translation.
Of course, we don't have the right (or the means) to ban part-timers from the industry. Both have a right to compete.
Regards
Dan
Dan makes an excellent point here, one which I'd like to take a moment to elaborate on.
Translating "to put food on the table," and not just for "pocket money," almost always means that there are situations in which you have to accept jobs that are to one degree or another outside your comfort zone, either in terms of the material involved or the deadline imposed. (These are among the "unfavorable circumstances" referred to by Dan.)
An experienced freelancer will have been able to deliver quality work on dozens of occasions under such "unfavorable circumstances."
Along the same lines, someone whose main source of income is derived from translation has a lot more to lose for delivering unacceptable work, or for not delivering on time.
Conversely, someone who has the luxury of "cherry picking" jobs can simply shrug their shoulders if their client isn't happy with their work, or even bail out on a job that has proven to be more difficult than expected.
So yes, there very much is a difference - generally speaking - between full-time freelancers and those who are doing translation work on the side.
[Edited at 2016-03-06 16:18 GMT]
| | | | The Misha
Local time: 01:22
Russian to English
+ ...
| Thank you for saving me the trouble of saying exactly that | Mar 6, 2016 |
Texte Style wrote:
I've adblocked my computer but I believe that normally anyone using the website gets to see the advertising. The more of us pro translators (or even hobby translators for that) come here, the more advertisers are willing to pay.
I personally have never bothered with membership here either and come purely for entertainment and to hang out with like-minded people, Proz lets me do so, so they obviously don't need my money. I often give noobs advice and have been thanked warmly for my contributions. So I don't see myself as a freeloader at all.
To that, I could only add that we are also participating in discussions such as this one, answer KudoZ questions and what not. As we do that, we create original content to fill this place up - and we do it absolutely free, out of the pure goodness of our sensitive little hearts. We also spread the word, whenever the chance arises (well, I know I do) - which amounts to word of mouth advertisement. All of this has a very specific value for this place.
Of course, all of this only matters as an argument if you see this place for what it truly is - a regular business operated for a profit by those who own it - rather than some kind of a do-gooder "community" project. Whatever that is. And don't get me wrong, I am not saying this tongue in cheek at all. I love business. Business is what makes the world work. God bless regular businesses. Take that from a lifelong atheist:)
[Edited at 2016-03-06 15:59 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-03-06 16:01 GMT]
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 01:22
Spanish to English
+ ...
| But what to do? (Or, Two sides of the coin) | Mar 6, 2016 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
There are those translators and translation agencies that can be found communicating on the job board platform.
There are those who cannot and probably increasingly do not want to do that.
I can only identify with colleagues and work with translation agencies active here that expect/pay reasonable, professional rates, which is clearly not the case with regard to job board users.
The general problem with this is that a professional translator's presence here is becoming increasingly superfluous but also seems to be more and more illogical. Yes, there are, once in a great while, serious clients who contact translators directly and are willing to do professional business. But this is clearly the minority. It is so much the minority that it's most often not worth the hassle even communicating with prospective clients. Many clients come here and check the job board for sure and get a completely wrong impression of what professional translation services entail and what constitutes reasonable remuneration. Reasonable, not unreasonably high fees!
You might say that this has been going on for more than a decade. Yes. sure. But it is going to reach a point where the good will certainly no longer remain under one roof/one descriptive name with the bad and the ugly.
Of course, there are many other similar portals, but as we know, this one started out and continues as "Proz".com
Your thoughts.
[Edited at 2016-03-04 18:35 GMT]
My apologies for coming to this thread late.
I am generally in sympathy with you here, Bernhard. Fundamentally, the issue is that sites like proz.com have opened the floodgates to all kinds of people to offer their services as translators. Among them are highly qualified and competent professionals, as well as persons of more modest attainments and/or experience who appear to be committed to joining the ranks of their more accomplished peers.
And then, unfortunately, there are also, among those rushing through the floodgates, persons of dubious qualifications as translators, as well as those who are patently unqualified.
This state of affairs has resulted in numerous persons marketing translation services who, while not producing work that could be characterized by any honest and competent observer as being of "high quality," is deemed "good enough" for many jobs by many clients.
Prices are damped down further in any "into English" combination in which there exists a critical mass of persons living in developing countries who are able to offer "into English" services that a critical mass of outsourcers deem acceptable for a critical mass of projects.
The wide use of CAT tools is yet another force that drives down fees offered to freelancers, at least in the major language combinations.
Consequently, many freelance translators find themselves working in what can fairly be characterized as "a buyer's market."
So what does one do about this, specifically as regards whether or not to have a presence on sites like this one?
While I am not happy about the fact that this site has given a platform to such a mixed multitude of persons to offer their services as translators, there is something of a silver lining. To wit, it isn't too hard to distinguish myself from clearly less qualified members/users of this site (I won't call them "peers"). The site also does offer the "Certified" program" facilitating this kind of distinction. (Yes, I know that the program is far from perfect.)
Then there is the indisputable fact that, at least for me, this site does deliver, sometimes directly through the jobs posted here that I successfully bid on, and more frequently through the platform it provides me (through my profile and site activity) and which allows potential clients to find me.
As far as I can see, there are no platforms out there providing a better alternative, or promising to deliver equally good or better results than those I've achieved through my presence here.
So while I agree with your criticisms, I end with the question I began with:
But what to do?
[Edited at 2016-03-06 16:04 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 06:22
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Far too much of a generalisation | Mar 6, 2016 |
There are several statements here that I personally find quite offensive. When I wrote about "hobby translators" I failed to define it - an error that I put right by making a clear distinction between part-timers who "know two languages" and happily accept to work for a pittance, and those part-time professional translators who insist on correct conditions. But it appears that, for some people, no part-time translator is a real professional; just someone playing at being a professional.
Dan Lucas wrote:
I do think there is a significant difference between somebody who translates for fun or pocket money and somebody who translates because she or her children will face extreme hardship if she doesn't.
While many part-timers can presumably do a good job in favourable circumstances - you state that you cherry pick projects - I would say that a successful professional has proven that they can consistently do a good job in unfavourable circumstances.
I agree with the first statement. But what about part-timers who have had one or more highly successful careers (in my case over 40 years, including EFL teaching)? Do we have to pay for that success (good private pensions, healthy bank accounts etc) by being labelled as 'fun' translators? Can we not be dedicated part-timers winding down towards retirement? Is specialisation only the way to go for full-timers, while part-timers HAVE to be generalists if they want to be taken at all seriously? Or would it be a waste of time to try? Do you really think we never go outside our chosen specialisations when it serves to help out regular clients? I've done contracts, safety manuals etc for regular marketing or tourism clients, but I wouldn't actively go after those jobs. Is that so wrong? Does it make me unworthy of the title 'professional translator'?
An experienced freelancer will have been able to deliver quality work on dozens of occasions under such "unfavorable circumstances."
Don't part-timers have to work to satisfy their regular clients' demands? Do you think our deadlines are more flexible than yours? Do you think a part-timer never works until 2 am, as I did recently because a file promised for 10 am didn't arrive until 5 pm? And yes, I could cite dozens of other examples where I went the extra mile.
Robert Forstag wrote:
Along the same lines, someone whose main source of income is derived from translation has a lot more to lose for delivering unacceptable work, or for not delivering on time.
Conversely, someone who has the luxury of "cherry picking" jobs can simply shrug their shoulders if their client isn't happy with their work, or even bail out on a job that has proven to be more difficult than expected.
That's just plain ridiculous, and offensive! We all have a reputation to think about. Do you really think a part-timer cares little about their reputation simply because it isn't their main source of income? Our reputation defines us as someone who is dependable and professional, not as someone who makes lots of money working all hours of the day and night. What on earth makes you believe that a part-timer, per se, is going to be happy to deliver shoddy work or simply not deliver at all? That's a preposterous statement. And one that would be censored if it was said about a particular race or colour.
| | | | Diana Coada (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:22
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Couldn't agree more, Sheila! | Mar 6, 2016 |
I find some of the comments above quite ridiculous.
In fact, exactly BECAUSE I'm a part-timer:
1. I can afford to work in my chosen fields, ONLY
2. I don't have to agree to bottom feeders' demands and rates
3. I don't contribute to the downward pressure on rates and to what many call the ''hamsterisation'' of the profession.
It's all quite shocking. When did part-time work become unworthy of any recognition?
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:22
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Come now, that's no more than a straw man | Mar 6, 2016 |
Diana Coada, PGDip DPSI NRPSI wrote:
It's all quite shocking. When did part-time work become unworthy of any recognition?
Diana, if you can point me to the words in my post where I state that part-time work is unworthy of any recognition I would be most grateful...
Thank you,
Dan
[Edited at 2016-03-06 20:55 GMT]
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » With whom I identify as a Pro on Proz.com and why there is a general problem | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
| | Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users!
Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
