| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] | With whom I identify as a Pro on Proz.com and why there is a general problem Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Kay Denney 
France
Local time: 02:31
French to English
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
May be Gandhiji's pithy dictum would be helpful to all of us. He said: Be the change that you would like to see in the world.
Being the astute observer of reality that he is, he never said: change the world to how you would like to see it.
[Edited at 2016-03-08 06:40 GMT]
Much as I admire, even revere, Gandhi, his stance and achievements, I have to say that I've tried that and it has come to nothing.
I wanted a nice clean house so I cleaned it. I was led to believe that if I kept the house clean, others would simply pick up the same habits as me, washing their cup straightaway instead of leaving it dirty in the sink. No way. They simply left it on the table instead, knowing there was a slave to clear up and wash up for them.
So I wouldn't mind you proving that that particular maxim works
| | | | | misunderstanding | Mar 8, 2016 |
Because it seems relevant to the whole issue here: I think you've missed the point of the maxim.
The maxim is not: "Be the change you would like to see and then the entire world will change."
It's not about getting things done. It's about our peace of mind and ability to consitstently and contentedly do the right thing in the midst of an unjust (and untidy) world.
Now it's possible that this state of mind and activity gernerate a powerful persuasive force... See more Because it seems relevant to the whole issue here: I think you've missed the point of the maxim.
The maxim is not: "Be the change you would like to see and then the entire world will change."
It's not about getting things done. It's about our peace of mind and ability to consitstently and contentedly do the right thing in the midst of an unjust (and untidy) world.
Now it's possible that this state of mind and activity gernerate a powerful persuasive force, but I doubt that they usually do, and speculating about that ruins the whole thing anyway.
Sorry to take an offhand comment very seriously, but it really does seem relevant here. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Wrong goal, wrong change | Mar 8, 2016 |
Texte Style wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
May be Gandhiji's pithy dictum would be helpful to all of us. He said: Be the change that you would like to see in the world.
Being the astute observer of reality that he is, he never said: change the world to how you would like to see it.
[Edited at 2016-03-08 06:40 GMT] Much as I admire, even revere, Gandhi, his stance and achievements, I have to say that I've tried that and it has come to nothing. I wanted a nice clean house so I cleaned it. I was led to believe that if I kept the house clean, others would simply pick up the same habits as me, washing their cup straightaway instead of leaving it dirty in the sink. No way. They simply left it on the table instead, knowing there was a slave to clear up and wash up for them. So I wouldn't mind you proving that that particular maxim works
Texte Style wrote, my (JHL) empnhasis here:
I was led to believe that if I kept the house clean, others would simply pick up the same habits as me
This change made you accountable for keeping the house clean, nobody else was expected to bother about it.
Using your example, if you used labels to assign a cup to each family member, and made them accountable for keeping it clean (instead of having the assurance that you would wash it every time) in case they wanted to drink coffee from a clean cup, it should work better. You could add other penalties, e.g. anyone leaving a dirty cup on the table would not have their laundry "automatically" taken (by you) to the washing machine.
This highlights the frequent confusion between efficiency and effectiveness.
It is more efficient for one person to wash all cups at once, i.e. it takes less time, water, detergent, etc. However to keep a house clean, it is more effective to have each family member accountable for picking up after themselves.
Likewise, it is more efficient to raise awareness in the translating community about pervasive low rates by endlessly discussing them on forums. On the other hand, I have found it more effective to offer superb services at the rates that I consider adequate.
If they ask me, "Can you make it cheaper?" I tell them "No, but I can't make it worse either." In other words, my rates don't budge, but my quality standards don't either.
This means that I won't be serving the bargain-hunting bottom-feeders that haunt Proz in the hope of furthering their profits with cheaper translators. If their end-clients will accept any nondescript quality, I am simply not catering to their market.
If they demand assurance that they'll get at least my standard of quality (and I'm not saying that it's the best on earth, just great value, unquestionably good enough for 80% of all cases), I'm in the game, at my rates.
As long as enough members of the second group are able to find me to take up most of my working hours, I don't need the first one, so I have no reason to complain about the low rates they offer on Proz or elsewhere.
My recipe is to raise the bar and, out of fairness, your rates shall follow.
Instead of Gandhi, I use my home town's motto, Non ducor, duco (= I'm not led, I lead). I don't expect that general awareness (from endless public moaning) on adequate translation rates causing them to move up should necessarily lead to my own rates going up, if I kept my service quality at a comparatively low level.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 20:31
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I don't see this as endless public moaning | Mar 8, 2016 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Instead of Gandhi, I use my home town's motto, Non ducor, duco (= I'm not led, I lead). I don't expect that general awareness (from endless public moaning) on adequate translation rates causing them to move up should necessarily lead to my own rates going up, if I kept my service quality at a comparatively low level.
When you use terms like endless public moaning about rates, you implicitly shrug off the practice and give license to it (even if only indirectly - but we all are registered here, aren't we?)
You say you have no reason to complain about the first group as long as you get enough work from the second one. Well, I do complain because what happens is outrageous, and, in good conscience, I should be planning my exit from here if things don't change.
To me it's about pointing to unacceptable practices in the industry and the need to distance myself from such practices. I don't shrug off what's going on. It's just awful. I also pointed to a sliver of hope - when the bottom has dropped out, things will change. But that hasn't happened yet.
[Edited at 2016-03-08 14:52 GMT]
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| Thanks anyway Bernhard! | Mar 8, 2016 |
Well, as some call it, your "endless public moaning" and reading these forums helped me understand how this industry operates and that you have to put your foot down more so here than elsewhere as this industry is so diverse.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 02:31
French to English
| bottoming out | Mar 8, 2016 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
when the bottom has dropped out, things will change. But that hasn't happened yet.
there was a joke about a French politician whose poll ratings were dropping dramatically, to the point that he was expected to find petrol any minute...
| | | | Kristina Cosumano (X)
Germany
Local time: 02:31
German to English
| You're more optimistic than I am | Mar 8, 2016 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I also pointed to a sliver of hope - when the bottom has dropped out, things will change. But that hasn't happened yet.
I don't see a change in the near future. This phenomenon isn't new (businesses have been trying to get something for as little as possible ever since Laban cheated on Jacob's deal to earn Rachel) and it's not limited to translation (see all the books for sale for one cent on Amazon!); what we're seeing is the result of its place in the Internet, in all its free-market, unregulated glory. It won't change for the better until some sort of collapse occurs, and causes something akin of "the great translator die-off", where something makes the pennies earned from cheap translations not so desirable.
I'm sure there is a life after ProZ, and it's probably just fine. Recently I had to get my birth certificate translated for the registry office, and instead of going online I took it to a local place in the next town over. Small outfit, just a married couple and one employee, and they charged me heaps more than it would have cost if I had used an online site. I doubt they even use ProZ, they are not listed here. Should they be worried? Probably not, they'll always have local business. And that's the where the difference lies – the Internet as a medium brings all prices down as it makes everything easier to obtain. If Newcomer Translator says no to 5 cents per word, he's shouting into the wind. Maybe he can raise his rates next year, but what's he to do today?
| | | | | The endless public moaning | Mar 8, 2016 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Instead of Gandhi, I use my home town's motto, Non ducor, duco (= I'm not led, I lead). I don't expect that general awareness (from endless public moaning) on adequate translation rates causing them to move up should necessarily lead to my own rates going up, if I kept my service quality at a comparatively low level. When you use terms like endless public moaning about rates, you implicitly shrug off the practice and give license to it (even if only indirectly - but we all are registered here, aren't we?) You say you have no reason to complain about the first group as long as you get enough work from the second one. Well, I do complain because what happens is outrageous, and, in good conscience, I should be planning my exit from here if things don't change. To me it's about pointing to unacceptable practices in the industry and the need to distance myself from such practices. I don't shrug off what's going on. It's just awful. I also pointed to a sliver of hope - when the bottom has dropped out, things will change. But that hasn't happened yet.
You may see the "endless public moaning" here on the Proz forums every time some fellow translator says that they have been OFFERED 2¢/word, 4¢/word etc.
I've built my translation business around NOT being offered anything. The market I cater to ASKS ME how much my services cost, and I tell them, like any service provider in a different trade.
When prospects OFFER me a certain amount for some job, again I TELL them my price, regardless of what they offered. I am accountable for making sure that the cost/benefit to the client is well worth it.
I have thoroughly researched the market to know that whatever I offer is definitely worth what it will cost them. Evidence of it is that about a dozen, perhaps a bit more, colleagues whose work (in our common language pair) I recommend as equivalent to mine, charge exactly the same I do.
The endless public moaning will end when a significant (overwhelming?) number of translators stops merely accepting the rates they are offered, do their due diligence in finding out how much their work is worth, and demand it.
When those clients who OFFER despicable rates find themselves offering these rates to the walls, in order to get the service level they NEED, they'll go about trying to find out how much it actually costs to get these needs fulfilled.
Part-time translators can only deliver partial production volume. Maybe clients need these translations earlier...
For the record, nothing about part-timers. I was double-freelancing myself as a translator and HR training & development consultant from 1987 through 2000. Of course, my available production in translation was somewhat limited, as I was often flying all over the country to present seminars. Anyway, most of my translation work then was focused on third-party training programs, where deadlines were quite lax.
In 2000, after having passed the exam, I was appointed as a sworn translator by the Brazilian government (statutory rates apply). As in the HR consulting market the percentage of price-undercutting competitors was considerably higher than in translation, I made my choice, and gave it up for good. No regrets, so far. Again, it's worth mentioning that sworn translations don't represent a large portion of my income, perhaps 10~20%.
My 2¢ on the public moaning; I hope it makes sense to more people than me alone.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 06:01
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Not about changing the world | Mar 9, 2016 |
Texte Style wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
May be Gandhiji's pithy dictum would be helpful to all of us. He said: Be the change that you would like to see in the world.
Being the astute observer of reality that he is, he never said: change the world to how you would like to see it.
[Edited at 2016-03-08 06:40 GMT] Much as I admire, even revere, Gandhi, his stance and achievements, I have to say that I've tried that and it has come to nothing. I wanted a nice clean house so I cleaned it. I was led to believe that if I kept the house clean, others would simply pick up the same habits as me, washing their cup straightaway instead of leaving it dirty in the sink. No way. They simply left it on the table instead, knowing there was a slave to clear up and wash up for them. So I wouldn't mind you proving that that particular maxim works
Michael and Jose have explained it much better.
It is not about changing the world, it is about changing yourself, and adapting yourself to a situation that seems overwhelming.
Gandhiji's words are based on a much older philosophy outlined in the Bhagvatgita, which says, "You do your duty, reward is not your concern".
When shorn of the religious (Hindu) symbolisms, this just means, you continue doing what you think is right (or righteous), but not with the expectation that you will be rewarded for your pains (in this world, or in the next).
I wouldn't go on a philosophical exposition of the Gita here as that would be awfully off the topic.
[Edited at 2016-03-09 02:25 GMT]
| | | | | Find another job! | Mar 9, 2016 |
Kristina Cosumano wrote:
If Newcomer Translator says no to 5 cents per word, he's shouting into the wind. Maybe he can raise his rates next year, but what's he to do today?
Unless they feel that this isn't the real deal for translators.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 20:31
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Independant contractor vs. employee | Mar 9, 2016 |
The huge independent contractor vs. employee law suit in the United States is going to have an impact on the translation industry. The more you set rates, set payment terms, track hours, dictate software requirements, etc, the more you start to look ... See more The huge independent contractor vs. employee law suit in the United States is going to have an impact on the translation industry. The more you set rates, set payment terms, track hours, dictate software requirements, etc, the more you start to look like an employer: http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_29607310/uber-driver-wins-unemployment-benefits
Back in the 1990s, several translators sued agencies for employee benefits because agencies were unilaterally dictating rates, payment terms, etc. For a long time after that, you had to send each agency business cards and proof of a separate business telephone line to prove your independent contractor status. Agencies were then cautious to always request your rates and terms. Twenty-five years later, all of this seems to have been forgotten (especially by a lot of the new "translation start-ups").
[Edited at 2016-03-09 17:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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