| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | The ethics of translating Panamanian incorporation documents Thread poster: Adrian MM. (X)
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Ladies and gentlemen, please!
I'm far from saying that a translator should blindly accept all the work offered, no questions asked. I was pointing out that, in some cases such as this Panamanian Papers saga, translators could actually be helping the investigation and prevention of tax evasion and, perhaps, might even help persuade our various governments to do something to stop evasion and make their taxation systems more equitable and transparent.
Translators who work for agencies a... See more Ladies and gentlemen, please!
I'm far from saying that a translator should blindly accept all the work offered, no questions asked. I was pointing out that, in some cases such as this Panamanian Papers saga, translators could actually be helping the investigation and prevention of tax evasion and, perhaps, might even help persuade our various governments to do something to stop evasion and make their taxation systems more equitable and transparent.
Translators who work for agencies are not usually told the identity of the end client and often don't know the purpose for which the translation is required. We are certainly discouraged from contacting end clients.
However, if a translator has doubts about the ethics, legality or morality of a job offered to him or her, I see no reason why he/she should not ask the agency for that information, explaining his/her misgivings.
If the agency's explanation (or refusal to explain) is unsatisfactory, then, of course, the translator can refuse the job - indeed, he/she is free to refuse it for all sorts of reasons, personal or otherwise, or not to give a reason at all. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Don't count on it! | Apr 5, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
...and, perhaps, might even help persuade our various governments to do something to stop evasion and make their taxation systems more equitable and transparent.
"LOL!" Have you seen this happening in any EU country at all? Our politicians are simply incapable of looking at the causes of tax evasion. Passing law that would treat citizens as such and not as slaves is not quite their point of view, I'm afraid.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| One at a time | Apr 5, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Jenny Forbes wrote:
...and, perhaps, might even help persuade our various governments to do something to stop evasion and make their taxation systems more equitable and transparent. "LOL!" Have you seen this happening in any EU country at all? Our politicians are simply incapable of looking at the causes of tax evasion. Passing law that would treat citizens as such and not as slaves is not quite their point of view, I'm afraid.
One country at a time is the way to do it. We have already had an excellent proposal, today, as to how the UK can do it in relation to the territories it controls.
Of course this will send the tax avoiders/evaders to go scurrying to the territories it does not control, but at least the British people will no longer be being cheated out of tax revenues that are needed for social purposes. It will be up to other countries to shut down their own tax havens.
It's a common trick for these international tax crooks to say that this has to be done internationally, knowing perfectly well that this is impossible.
| | | | Robert Forstag 
United States
Local time: 14:39
Spanish to English
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| How will the translation of the leaked Panamanian documents be handled? | Apr 5, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote: So if you want to help with translating (from Spanish, I assume) your best point of contact would be The International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, here: https://www.icij.org
Does anyone know if this (or any other) organization is prepared to pay to have these documents translated? Or is the expectation that such a service be offered on a pro bono basis?
[Edited at 2016-04-05 14:20 GMT]
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Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Serbian to English
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| why stop at Panama's foundations? | Apr 5, 2016 |
What about Luxembourg and their (in)famous tax rulings?
or even UK? Surely something ought to be done about this:
so no more translating of incorporation documents for Luxembourg / UK companies? (not to forget Cyprus, Lichtenstein, Channel islands etc etc)
Someone's tax cheater is someone else's [fiscal] freedom fighter - are you sure that's the translator's business to decide which one it is?
| | | | | A simple solution! | Apr 6, 2016 |
Thiings could be so simple! 20% income tax for everyone, 10% VAT/sales tax for everything, 20% corporate tax, no exceptions, rebates, allowances, deductions, or exemptions, unified accounting rules (on what is considered a business expense), no government funding for corporations, and unified pay slips, all over the world.
If our politicians invested their time in creating a fair, world-wide system instead in saving their butt or researching their belly buttons, the future could be ... See more Thiings could be so simple! 20% income tax for everyone, 10% VAT/sales tax for everything, 20% corporate tax, no exceptions, rebates, allowances, deductions, or exemptions, unified accounting rules (on what is considered a business expense), no government funding for corporations, and unified pay slips, all over the world.
If our politicians invested their time in creating a fair, world-wide system instead in saving their butt or researching their belly buttons, the future could be quite bright for everybody and tax havens would disappear. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Well said, Tomás | Apr 6, 2016 |
It would indeed be great if our MPs, diputados, paid more attention to the reason why they are in parliament (to represent us, the voters!) and less to protecting their political careers or even playing childish games on their mobile phones during debates.
Have you contacted your MP about the kind of tax reform you suggest? I have written to mine, suggesting that the UK should lead the way by shutting down or stringently controlling its numerous and notorious tax havens - the British Virgi... See more It would indeed be great if our MPs, diputados, paid more attention to the reason why they are in parliament (to represent us, the voters!) and less to protecting their political careers or even playing childish games on their mobile phones during debates.
Have you contacted your MP about the kind of tax reform you suggest? I have written to mine, suggesting that the UK should lead the way by shutting down or stringently controlling its numerous and notorious tax havens - the British Virgins, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man - the list goes on and on.
In our soi-disant democracies it is our prerogative (if not our duty) to "bother" our MPs with the matters that concern us. If enough constituents do that, occasionally - I repeat occasionally - the law gets changed.
Start a campaign - or join one. Or stand for election to parliament yourself! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Slavery? Seriously? | Apr 6, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
The point is: Should we really allow governments to raise taxes to unreasonable levels?
I believe one of the purposes of elections is to select a government, and one of the criteria voters may use is tax policy.
Naturally, that can be a slow process, and I'm all in favour of people taking action to effect change. Sadly, tax evasion and avoidance is not usually a matter of taking action to bring about changes to a situation, and is not usually considered to be some kind of financial civil disobedience (like our Poll Tax protest years ago, for example). It's just about greed.
The insane tax levels paid by people with high income means that the government makes more money than tax payers, effectively making them slaves of the State. Trying to escape slavery is something I can understand. One human right that was forgotten but should definitely be included is the right not to be enslaved by means of excessive taxes.
Slavery? You really believe that high rates of taxation are comparable to slavery? Do explain more. Given, after all, that we are not talking about taking away 70% of the earnings of people who only earn €20 a day, or some other arrangement about which we would be perfectly justified in protesting, but we are talking about individuals of above-average wealth who would like to be a little wealthier (who wouldn't?!), and have decided to achieve this either by simply breaking the law (not usually the case for these Panama papers, admittedly), or stretch the law and ignore ethical and social considerations, while being the first to use social infrastructure paid for out of collective taxation whenever the need arises (especially the courts).
More generally, I take the point about the end purpose of a translation, but if you explain why you're declining the job, it gives the client a chance to explain the purpose. So if in fact you would be translating the document to help a cause you believe in, that should become clear. I've declined agency work relating to HSBC Private Bank (several times) and Rothschild recently (and several documents from French companies bidding for work in Saudi Arabia). I know that someone else will do the work, I know that individually it is an almost futile gesture, but only almost. "Be the change that you want to see" and all that. Or defend tax-dodging money launderers as modern-day slaves to democratically elected governments. The choice is yours.
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Thiings could be so simple! 20% income tax for everyone, 10% VAT/sales tax for everything, 20% corporate tax, no exceptions, rebates, allowances, deductions, or exemptions, unified accounting rules (on what is considered a business expense), no government funding for corporations, and unified pay slips, all over the world.
If our politicians invested their time in creating a fair, world-wide system instead in saving their butt or researching their belly buttons, the future could be quite bright for everybody and tax havens would disappear.
That would be a regressive tax that would hit the poorest hardest.
20% of an annual income of say £50K is a serious hit for that person.
20% of an annual income of £500,000 is no trouble at all for that person.
Yours is a plan for an unfair society. Your "flat tax" proposal is very similar to that once proposed by the extreme right UKIP in the UK. These days they are trying to deny they had ever suggested it.
[Edited at 2016-04-06 09:48 GMT]
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Tom in London wrote:
20% of an annual income of say £50K is a serious hit for that person.
FWIW, that was almost exactly the effective income tax rate on that level of income in the UK 10 years ago, when the personal allowance was around £5k or slightly higher and the higher rate kicked in in the low 30s. Now the allowance has almost doubled, it's not quite that level but it is in the same broad area (in comparison with other round figures for income tax percentages one might pluck out of thin air for the sake of discussion)
20% of an annual income of £500,000 is no trouble at all for that person.
Absolutely, which is why, of course, the marginal percentage is usually substantially higher than 20% once incomes hit 6 figures. A situation Tomas equates with slavery.
Yours is a plan for an unfair society. Your "flat tax" proposal is very similar to that once proposed by the extreme right UKIP in the UK. These days they are trying to deny they had ever suggested it.
Also true. Sales taxes have the benefit of being harder to avoid (while in no way guaranteeing the government will receive the money collected on its behalf by sellers) and the drawback of hitting the poorest hardest.
But we are drifting off topic. With reference to our beloved pig-molesting leader and Panama, here's an MP explaining why tax avoidance is repugnant:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jess-phillips/david-cameron-taxes_b_9622288.html
| | | | | You do not have to be rich to be taxed heavily | Apr 6, 2016 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Slavery? You really believe that high rates of taxation are comparable to slavery? Do explain more.
When one talks about cutting down or unifying taxes, many people immediately think of the one thousand filthy rich in each country, but the fact is that you do not have to be that rich to be taxed in a way that makes you a slave to the state. Take Spain: you pay 47% income tax from 60 000 euros. Add VAT of 21%, and the state makes more money on your work than yourself. You very much become a property of the state, as the state is entitled to take away whatever they like from you.
| | | | | A dream discourse for greedy politicians | Apr 6, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote: Tomás wrote:
Thiings could be so simple! 20% income tax for everyone, 10% VAT/sales tax for everything, 20% corporate tax, no exceptions, rebates, allowances, deductions, or exemptions, unified accounting rules (on what is considered a business expense), no government funding for corporations, and unified pay slips, all over the world. 20% of an annual income of say £50K is a serious hit for that person. 20% of an annual income of £500,000 is no trouble at all for that person.
This is the kind of discourse that is used by politicians to create confrontation and impose to those earning £50K the taxes that should be born by people making £500K... while those making £500K have it all well arranged in a tax haven.
[Edited at 2016-04-06 12:12 GMT]
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| Social contract | Apr 6, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
Slavery? You really believe that high rates of taxation are comparable to slavery? Do explain more. ... the fact is that you do not have to be that rich to be taxed in a way that makes you a slave to the state. .... You very much become a property of the state, as the state is entitled to take away whatever they like from you.
Well, this line of thought appears to be heading towards the philosophy and practice of the social contract, of which much has been written. One assumes that while you may not agree with everything on which the Spanish government spends its tax revenue (I certainly disagree with many expensive areas of UK govt spending) and that your stance may even extend to the abolition of public welfare and pension provision, for instance, you do accept that a modern state does need to pay for *some* services and facilities of public benefit (e.g. emergency services) and that general taxation is a reasonable method of raising the necessary money?
Assuming you accept there is a need for taxation in a functioning Western democracy, the question is then a) a matter of degree and b) whether the current degree can justifiably be compared to slavery. One would perhaps, need to agree on the salient features of slavery.
Personally, I consider such a comparison to be a hysterical over-reaction which tends to obscure any validity lying behind the points you make, and is an odious parallel to draw given the very real abuses suffered by those who were slaves in the past, and indeed are viewed as slaves in the modern day. A Spanish taxpayer is no more a slave than I am the King of Tonga, and to suggest such is both absurd and abhorrent.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:09
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | Tax countries too | Apr 6, 2016 |
The solution as I see it is that there should be a tax on countries too, just as we have tax on individuals, and this tax should be handled by some international organization (not the UN, which is a puppet in the hands of the victors of the WW2) to advance common humanitarian good, such as eradication of poverty, illiteracy, diseases like malaria, under-nutrition, etc.
Today we have countries that are filthily rich and which spent their money on wasteful pursuits like weapons, or il... See more The solution as I see it is that there should be a tax on countries too, just as we have tax on individuals, and this tax should be handled by some international organization (not the UN, which is a puppet in the hands of the victors of the WW2) to advance common humanitarian good, such as eradication of poverty, illiteracy, diseases like malaria, under-nutrition, etc.
Today we have countries that are filthily rich and which spent their money on wasteful pursuits like weapons, or illegal wars, or in promoting self-interest to the detriment of the common good of humankind.
Thomas Pikety has already pointed where this is going to lead, with wealth concentrating in fewer and fewer hands (and not necessarily human hands, as much of the wealth is with corporations which are not subject to human morality and ethics - their sole aim is to keep on maximising profit). The developed countries are getting hit the maximum. In countries like the US income disparity has increased and impoverishment of the middle classes has increased, even when the rich have continued to grow richer. In Europe, the welfare state is slowly unravelling and all these countries, the reality is that previous generations were richer than the current generation for many middle-class families.
Taxing countires and redistribution of the surplus wealth of developed countries, much of which is ill-gotten from colonialism and imperialism, will bind together humanity and help it get over racism and other tribal diseases such as nationalism, religious fanaticism and intolerance. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
I'm glad to see that this thread is complying with Discussion Forum Rule #39,672: "All discussion topics shall wander off-topic by the time they get to the end of Page 2".
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