| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Outsourcer threatens and refuses/disputes payment - What shall I do? Thread poster: Natascha Gruver
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Dear Proz.Com translator community!
I am new to the business, and it seems, I have stepped into some unpleasant traps:
May I ask for your feedback and advice on this case - perhaps you experienced similar?
1. I started to work for an outsourcer with a small project (area: technical translation)
As this went well, the outsourcer assigned me a bigger one, informally in an email.
I requested a formal PO, to specify and confirm the service and rate.
... See more Dear Proz.Com translator community!
I am new to the business, and it seems, I have stepped into some unpleasant traps:
May I ask for your feedback and advice on this case - perhaps you experienced similar?
1. I started to work for an outsourcer with a small project (area: technical translation)
As this went well, the outsourcer assigned me a bigger one, informally in an email.
I requested a formal PO, to specify and confirm the service and rate.
The outsourcer replied, I shall start (without sending a PO).
Since I am new to the business, I didn't want to lose this assignment and client, so I started, this job:
a technical translation of about 30.000 words for a low rate of 0.49 eurocents per source word, being aware that the community min. rate is 0.08, cents, but again, I wanted to build up business momentum and so accepted to work for this low rate.
2. In the course of the translation I realized the English (from Japanese) source text was erroneous, grammatically incorrect and partly gibberish. So i assumed that this was not the final version, but will undergo a circle of proofreading. I delivered my translation on time, aware that my text was not free from errors as well. Shortly after the outsourcer made huge pressure, that I should improve the translation, and started to thread that "the client" will not pay, and if the client doesn't pay, - they won't me pay me neither. I obeyed to all the improvement requests, where at that stage, to my opinion i was not doing translation but proofreading now too. I checked back with the outsourcer, and now they claimed that they had assigned me a TE job! and that would be all my responsibility to make the corrections.
3. In the next phase, the outsourcer informed that there where allegedly "server quality" issues, and that they had to hand my translation over to an editor. AND STATES THAT I HAVE TO PAY FOR THE EDITOR = THAT THEY WOULD DEDUCT THE EDITORS FEE FROM MY PAYMENT!
I do not deny that I my text was free of errors, but isn't this a well established practice in the translation business, that you have one doing the translation, and a proofreading/editing process from another person afterwards?!.
I agree that the editor/proofreader did in fact some substantial improvements on my translation. and I would agree on a discount.
This outsourcer has posed the following threads:
1) that the client is "outraged" and not willing to pay for the translation, and therefore, the outsourcer won't pay me either
2) that I have to pay for the editor/proofreader, since it were MY responsibility, and they will deduct up to 70% from my payment!
I can not believe this is a legal/common practice ??!!!
I have been already working for a low rate of 0.045 for an advanced technical translation.
This can't be true!?
I am sorry I have written such a long blog, This case is for sure a big learning lesson for me.
Thanks very much to everybody who takes the time to read and help out with feedback!
Babel Wizard ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Please clarify | Apr 8, 2016 |
This outsourcer has posed the following threads:
1) that the client is "outraged" and not willing to pay for the translation, and therefore, the outsourcer won't pay me either
2) that I have to pay for the editor/proofreader, since it were MY responsibility, and they will deduct up to 70% from my payment!
I'm so sorry this happened to you when you're just starting out. I don't quite understand the outsourcer's threats, though. If according to 1) they won't pay you, then where are you supposed to get the money to pay the proofreader in 2)? And how are they going to withhold 70% of $0?
If they're proposing to pay you 30% of the rate agreed upon and your translation was as full of errors as you say, I would just take the money and run and do better next time. Lesson learned: Always submit as error-free a translation as you can manage and always notify the client as soon as possible if there are problems with the source text.
[Edited at 2016-04-08 18:24 GMT]
| | | | | There isn't a simple answer | Apr 8, 2016 |
I had a similar issue with an into German translation. The client said it was shit (literally). So, 2 proofreaders looked at it: one said that it was like English written with German words, but the other one said it wasn't that bad (maybe a 6). I agreed on a discount of around 40% with the translator and didn't charge the final client. Lost the client, anyway. Note: the proofreaders didn't go through the whole text (there wasn't enough budget for that).
Maybe you could try that. Get... See more I had a similar issue with an into German translation. The client said it was shit (literally). So, 2 proofreaders looked at it: one said that it was like English written with German words, but the other one said it wasn't that bad (maybe a 6). I agreed on a discount of around 40% with the translator and didn't charge the final client. Lost the client, anyway. Note: the proofreaders didn't go through the whole text (there wasn't enough budget for that).
Maybe you could try that. Get a couple of proofreaders to proofread maybe 5 pages each and ask them to report about their findings. Then decide. Note: I'm suggesting this because I see you are concerned about the translation's quality. If the proofreaders say the text is usable, then offer a small discount. If non accepted, you'll have to go through the usual pre-suing steps: phone calls, Blue Board, etc.
[Edited at 2016-04-08 18:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us 
United States
Local time: 03:06
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Can you explain more? | Apr 8, 2016 |
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
I agreed on a discount of around 40% with the translator and didn't charge the final client. Lost the client, anyway. Note: the proofreaders didn't go through the whole text (there wasn't enough budget for that).
[Edited at 2016-04-08 18:27 GMT]
Didn't you deal with an agency client? Why did you say you didn't charge the final client? Do you usually need to charge the final client?
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| I was the agency | Apr 8, 2016 |
jyuan_us wrote: Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
I agreed on a discount of around 40% with the translator and didn't charge the final client. Lost the client, anyway. Note: the proofreaders didn't go through the whole text (there wasn't enough budget for that).
[Edited at 2016-04-08 18:27 GMT] Didn't you deal with an agency client? Why did you say you didn't charge the final client? Do you usually need to charge the final client?
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 03:06
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Thank you for your clarification | Apr 8, 2016 |
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
I agreed on a discount of around 40% with the translator and didn't charge the final client. Lost the client, anyway. Note: the proofreaders didn't go through the whole text (there wasn't enough budget for that).
[Edited at 2016-04-08 18:27 GMT] Didn't you deal with an agency client? Why did you say you didn't charge the final client? Do you usually need to charge the final client?
| | | | Natalia Postrigan
United States
Local time: 00:06
Member (2016)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Language pair | Apr 8, 2016 |
Babel, can I ask what language pair it was? Was the target language your native language? I see you are very modest in your assessment of the translation quality, but I'd like to get a better idea whether the agency's behavior can be justified at all.
Generally, I believe in the following: it is an agency's responsibility to test translators upfront. Given that it is not always possible (what if the target language is foreign to the agency), there are still certain measures that hel... See more Babel, can I ask what language pair it was? Was the target language your native language? I see you are very modest in your assessment of the translation quality, but I'd like to get a better idea whether the agency's behavior can be justified at all.
Generally, I believe in the following: it is an agency's responsibility to test translators upfront. Given that it is not always possible (what if the target language is foreign to the agency), there are still certain measures that help. Primarily, hiring native speakers. Checking their credentials, naturally. Requesting translation samples and having another native speaker check them. After that, the agency assumes the risk. If they failed to take necessary precautions and ended up with a gibberish translation, who is to blame?
Don't blame yourself for not insisting on an advance payment. We are all wiser in afterthought, but in dire circumstances people take risks. It's not easy these days to get a job.
Btw, I like Alvaro's advice, to collect a few third party opinions. That's why I am asking which language pair it was. I've been working with one publishing house for years; they rotate translation editors, and sometimes my translation is hardly touched, but there was one editor who attempted to rewrite the entire book in her own style. To a bystander, after her editing it looked like I must have been an awful translator. But some (rare?) editors are like that - with a burning need to justify their fees by rewriting every second sentence.
Above all, check the agency's reputation and ratings. If they are enjoying a stellar reputation, it's a reason to be concerned in your case. If they have low ratings, and lots of problems have been reported by other translators - well, go figure.
[Edited at 2016-04-08 20:48 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 09:06
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| This is an unfortunate newbie error | Apr 8, 2016 |
Babel Wizard wrote:
In the course of the translation I realized the English (from Japanese) source text was erroneous, grammatically incorrect and partly gibberish. ... I delivered my translation on time, aware that my text was not free from errors as well.
It is okay to deliver a gibberish translation of a gibberish source text, if the client is aware that it is a gibberish source text and that the translation will be gibberish as well. But in this case the client thought that the source text was translatable, and so they expected an error-free translation. You should have raised this issue with the client before delivering the file.
Your only hope is to try to convince the client that your translation is actually the best under the circumstances, i.e. that the flaws in your translation are actually due to problems with the source text. You would have had more luck selling this argument if you had done so before delivering the file, though.
Shortly after the outsourcer made huge pressure, that I should improve the translation ... I obeyed to all the improvement requests, where at that stage, to my opinion i was not doing translation but proofreading now too.
Fixing problems with your own translation based on client comments isn't proofreading or editing. It's just fixing. And you should not expect to get paid extra for it, unless the client's comments relate to requirements that you were not aware of beforehand. If there are errors in your translation, and the client can point them out, then you have to fix them for free.
...isn't this a well established practice in the translation business, that you have one doing the translation, and a proofreading/editing process from another person afterwards?!.
It is common practice [for a client to have the translation proofread at the client's own cost], and it is a good practice, but it is not the "standard" practice. Unless a client specifically tells you that your translation will be proofread by someone, you must assume that it will not be, and that the client actually expects you to deliver a print-ready translation. And if you deliver a translation that needs additional work to make it print-ready, then it makes sense that you should pay for that extra work.
These are just my opinions.
[Edited at 2016-04-08 21:23 GMT]
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 10:06
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
| Just write it off and be wiser next time | Apr 9, 2016 |
Some outsourcers jump at new people. I remember one Austrian agency owner back in 2002 suggested to sell me Transit Satellite for 450 Euro, a free software! I did not react to this but since then they send me work quite regularly for my normal rate.
So don't take offence, but forget about this job.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 08:06
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Quality is paramount in this business | Apr 9, 2016 |
If poor quality had been an acceptable solution, the client could have used a 2ct per word translator or even Google Translate. As it is, instead of €0 the client has been charged getting on for €150 (if my maths is right). I'm not saying your version was as awful as the worst of GT, but incorrect is incorrect. Clients expect our translations to be 100% fit for purpose. The proofreading stage provided by an agency should correct for typos and the occasional calque or clunky phrasing. The typ... See more If poor quality had been an acceptable solution, the client could have used a 2ct per word translator or even Google Translate. As it is, instead of €0 the client has been charged getting on for €150 (if my maths is right). I'm not saying your version was as awful as the worst of GT, but incorrect is incorrect. Clients expect our translations to be 100% fit for purpose. The proofreading stage provided by an agency should correct for typos and the occasional calque or clunky phrasing. The type of thing that's far more easily picked up by a second pair of eyes.
There are certainly some lessons to be learnt here. It's a shame that the lesson has been so hard but this is the business world, not school where the worst you get is "Fail" stamped on your paper. A few points:
- If a source text has deficiencies that mean it cannot be translated successfully, it's your job to inform the client immediately and act on instructions - which must be in writing.
- Editors are not magicians so why assume they can understand gibberish better than you? If you've accepted a job that you can't do, but that is doable by someone else, then you're the wrong person for the job.
- All justifiable requests for corrections of our own work get done for free, urgently, and with abject apologies.
- It is normal for agencies to request a discount if you don't produce a suitable translation. You should be given the opportunity to correct it yourself, but business pressures don't always allow for that. Certainly if a major fix is needed then the client would be perfectly within his/her rights to demand a discount of up to100%.
The thing is that when quality issues are present we lose all our rights. You can't post a critical rating on the Blue Board here and I doubt that the courts would award you much either. So I would offer this client a generous discount and move on. And in future, only attempt jobs that are within your capabilities from start to finish. Personally, I think that means taking into-English translation services off your profile. Even allowing for stress when posting, I don't believe you can guarantee perfect English, and there are plenty who can. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 03:06
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Agree completely | Apr 9, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
If poor quality had been an acceptable solution, the client could have used a 2ct per word translator or even Google Translate. As it is, instead of €0 the client has been charged getting on for €150 (if my maths is right). I'm not saying your version was as awful as the worst of GT, but incorrect is incorrect. Clients expect our translations to be 100% fit for purpose. The proofreading stage provided by an agency should correct for typos and the occasional calque or clunky phrasing. The type of thing that's far more easily picked up by a second pair of eyes.
There are certainly some lessons to be learnt here. It's a shame that the lesson has been so hard but this is the business world, not school where the worst you get is "Fail" stamped on your paper. A few points:
- If a source text has deficiencies that mean it cannot be translated successfully, it's your job to inform the client immediately and act on instructions - which must be in writing.
- Editors are not magicians so why assume they can understand gibberish better than you? If you've accepted a job that you can't do, but that is doable by someone else, then you're the wrong person for the job.
- All justifiable requests for corrections of our own work get done for free, urgently, and with abject apologies.
- It is normal for agencies to request a discount if you don't produce a suitable translation. You should be given the opportunity to correct it yourself, but business pressures don't always allow for that. Certainly if a major fix is needed then the client would be perfectly within his/her rights to demand a discount of up to100%.
The thing is that when quality issues are present we lose all our rights. You can't post a critical rating on the Blue Board here and I doubt that the courts would award you much either. So I would offer this client a generous discount and move on. And in future, only attempt jobs that are within your capabilities from start to finish. Personally, I think that means taking into-English translation services off your profile. Even allowing for stress when posting, I don't believe you can guarantee perfect English, and there are plenty who can.
I agree.
I especially agree that, based on the dozens of errors in her post, the Asker should not be offering into-English professional translation services.
[Edited at 2016-04-09 12:05 GMT]
| | | | Natascha Gruver
Austria
Local time: 09:06
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you very much Sheila for your extensive comments! Helped a lot! :) | Apr 9, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
If poor quality had been an acceptable solution, the client could have used a 2ct per word translator or even Google Translate. As it is, instead of €0 the client has been charged getting on for €150 (if my maths is right). I'm not saying your version was as awful as the worst of GT, but incorrect is incorrect. Clients expect our translations to be 100% fit for purpose. The proofreading stage provided by an agency should correct for typos and the occasional calque or clunky phrasing. The type of thing that's far more easily picked up by a second pair of eyes.
There are certainly some lessons to be learnt here. It's a shame that the lesson has been so hard but this is the business world, not school where the worst you get is "Fail" stamped on your paper. A few points:
- If a source text has deficiencies that mean it cannot be translated successfully, it's your job to inform the client immediately and act on instructions - which must be in writing.
- Editors are not magicians so why assume they can understand gibberish better than you? If you've accepted a job that you can't do, but that is doable by someone else, then you're the wrong person for the job.
- All justifiable requests for corrections of our own work get done for free, urgently, and with abject apologies.
- It is normal for agencies to request a discount if you don't produce a suitable translation. You should be given the opportunity to correct it yourself, but business pressures don't always allow for that. Certainly if a major fix is needed then the client would be perfectly within his/her rights to demand a discount of up to100%.
The thing is that when quality issues are present we lose all our rights. You can't post a critical rating on the Blue Board here and I doubt that the courts would award you much either. So I would offer this client a generous discount and move on. And in future, only attempt jobs that are within your capabilities from start to finish. Personally, I think that means taking into-English translation services off your profile. Even allowing for stress when posting, I don't believe you can guarantee perfect English, and there are plenty who can.
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Natascha Gruver
Austria
Local time: 09:06
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks much to all of you for your helpful comments! | Apr 9, 2016 |
I thank you all, for taking the time to comment. The issue has become clearer now, and yes - lessons learned! As a native (Austrian), I am working in the English into German language pair.
| | | | Natascha Gruver
Austria
Local time: 09:06
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you Samuel! | Apr 9, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Babel Wizard wrote:
In the course of the translation I realized the English (from Japanese) source text was erroneous, grammatically incorrect and partly gibberish. ... I delivered my translation on time, aware that my text was not free from errors as well. It is okay to deliver a gibberish translation of a gibberish source text, if the client is aware that it is a gibberish source text and that the translation will be gibberish as well. But in this case the client thought that the source text was translatable, and so they expected an error-free translation. You should have raised this issue with the client before delivering the file. Your only hope is to try to convince the client that your translation is actually the best under the circumstances, i.e. that the flaws in your translation are actually due to problems with the source text. You would have had more luck selling this argument if you had done so before delivering the file, though. Shortly after the outsourcer made huge pressure, that I should improve the translation ... I obeyed to all the improvement requests, where at that stage, to my opinion i was not doing translation but proofreading now too. Fixing problems with your own translation based on client comments isn't proofreading or editing. It's just fixing. And you should not expect to get paid extra for it, unless the client's comments relate to requirements that you were not aware of beforehand. If there are errors in your translation, and the client can point them out, then you have to fix them for free. ...isn't this a well established practice in the translation business, that you have one doing the translation, and a proofreading/editing process from another person afterwards?!. It is common practice [for a client to have the translation proofread at the client's own cost], and it is a good practice, but it is not the "standard" practice. Unless a client specifically tells you that your translation will be proofread by someone, you must assume that it will not be, and that the client actually expects you to deliver a print-ready translation. And if you deliver a translation that needs additional work to make it print-ready, then it makes sense that you should pay for that extra work. These are just my opinions. [Edited at 2016-04-08 21:23 GMT]
| | | | Natascha Gruver
Austria
Local time: 09:06
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks for your comment, TransAfrique! | Apr 9, 2016 |
TransAfrique wrote: This outsourcer has posed the following threads:
1) that the client is "outraged" and not willing to pay for the translation, and therefore, the outsourcer won't pay me either
2) that I have to pay for the editor/proofreader, since it were MY responsibility, and they will deduct up to 70% from my payment! I'm so sorry this happened to you when you're just starting out. I don't quite understand the outsourcer's threats, though. If according to 1) they won't pay you, then where are you supposed to get the money to pay the proofreader in 2)? And how are they going to withhold 70% of $0? If they're proposing to pay you 30% of the rate agreed upon and your translation was as full of errors as you say, I would just take the money and run and do better next time. Lesson learned: Always submit as error-free a translation as you can manage and always notify the client as soon as possible if there are problems with the source text. [Edited at 2016-04-08 18:24 GMT]
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