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Discrimination based on national origin and native language in ProZ ads
Thread poster: lumierre

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 07:49
Member
English to Italian
Better or faster? Apr 7

Chris S wrote:

How somebody speaks is not foolproof but it’s a better test than how they write.


Actually, I'd say it should be the exact opposite for translators... What do you care if someone speaks with an accent if they can write "as a native"? Problem is it's a bit harder to tell, especially for every possible circumstance and subject, while it only takes a few seconds to judge the way someone speaks, and every native speaker of that language can do it, without any kind of training, education, specialization, etc., but just having been born and grown up in a specific place and "setting".


DZiW
Kaspars Melkis
 

Chris S  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Swedish to English
+ ...
Native speaker vs good translator Apr 8

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
What do you care if someone speaks with an accent if they can write "as a native"? ... every native speaker of that language can do it, without any kind of training, education, specialization, etc., but just having been born and grown up in a specific place and "setting".


But surely that's the whole point? This is a test of what your native language/country is, not whether you can write/translate to a high standard.

You write English far better than most native speakers, but that doesn't make you a native speaker.

In some areas you can doubtless do a better job than most natives, but in others a native speaker has to be the translator of choice. Hence this "discrimination".

And with so many non-natives on this site wrongly claiming to be native speakers of acquired languages, it seems fair for there to be some kind of test/filter.

[Edited at 2019-04-08 09:15 GMT]


DZiW
writeaway
Kay Denney
missdutch
Yvonne Gallagher
 
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Post responding to a post removed for violation of general site rule 2.

Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:49
Romanian to English
+ ...
Just to lighten up the mood Apr 10

DZiW wrote:

in BrE the official is The Queen's/Royal/BBC variant, which represents... some 3% of the speakers.


“... only the immigrants can speak the Queen's English these days” (Zadie Smith: White Teeth)


Liviu-Lee Roth
IrinaN
DZiW
 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:49
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
The crux of the problem - the binary designation on ProZ Apr 10

Chris S wrote:

...with so many non-natives on this site wrongly claiming to be native speakers of acquired languages...


....aaaand that is because ProZ still does not offer a selection for specifying "native level" as one's language ability - neither in one's profile, nor in job descriptions - even though this has been requested numerous times over the 18 or so years I have been a member of this site.
I am still on the opinion that having different levels of language proficiency settings rather than a binary (native vs. non-native) distinction would greatly improve the situation.


Liviu-Lee Roth
Chris S
Kaspars Melkis
Annamaria Amik
Michael Wetzel
missdutch
Margarita
 

DZiW
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Othering: competency and reverse discrimination Apr 11

Katalin, have you ever seen such a perfect* designation implemented?
A vague "native speaker" idea involves not only volatile CEFR C1+, foreign language competency and specialization, but also lots of even blurrier characteristics as interpersonal skills, emotional intelligence, culture awareness and flavors, and many more "native" clichés, patterns and biases. Thus technically and juridically it's simpler just ask "Do you feel yourself relatively as a native speaker?" (whatever i
... See more
Katalin, have you ever seen such a perfect* designation implemented?
A vague "native speaker" idea involves not only volatile CEFR C1+, foreign language competency and specialization, but also lots of even blurrier characteristics as interpersonal skills, emotional intelligence, culture awareness and flavors, and many more "native" clichés, patterns and biases. Thus technically and juridically it's simpler just ask "Do you feel yourself relatively as a native speaker?" (whatever it might imply) than try digitizing and objectively reassessing one's performance. Yes, comparing to non-natives and ex-native speakers, I consider myself a native speaker, but obviously there should be more proficient and willing candidates in many fields. Considering modern globalization and "good enough" trends, that's ok.


As for the negative connotation of distinction aka "discrimination", it's rather funny to read and hear them proclaiming all those unique freedoms and individuality while promoting all-equality: Either-or guys.

Meanwhile, The Equality Act 2010 highlights nine protected characteristics: (1) age, (2) gender, (3) race, (4) disability, (5) religion, (6) pregnancy and maternity, (7) sexual orientation, (8) gender reassignment, (9) marriage and civil partnership, and (10) low rates.

However, besides the contract law, where an employer can describe his requirements in details, legally rejecting all who don't meet the requirements--or he just don't like, even seemingly direct discrimination is legal too, provided there's a good reason for such an unfair treatment.

Gut issues of "untouchables" "discriminated" are people don't meet the requirements, yet still want money

[Edited at 2019-04-11 05:59 GMT]
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Chris S  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Swedish to English
+ ...
Now you've touched on this subject... Apr 11

DZiW wrote:
Thus technically and juridically it's simpler just ask "Do you feel yourself relatively as a native speaker?" (whatever it might imply)

... I feel myself regularly as a native speaker


 

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 01:49
Member (2018)
French to English
+ ...
Hahahaha Apr 11

Chris S wrote:

DZiW wrote:
Thus technically and juridically it's simpler just ask "Do you feel yourself relatively as a native speaker?" (whatever it might imply)

... I feel myself regularly as a native speaker


Hahahaha! I feel myself coming down with a headache. What's causing it is all this throwing about of utterly non-native expressions such as "juridically" and "feel yourself relatively as a native speaker."


Michele Fauble
DZiW
Yvonne Gallagher
 

DZiW
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Face control Apr 12

Eliza, for such sites as ProZ it is easier just to ask, so take it easy that rather many people [of legal age] don't realize such statements as "I'm a native speaker" assume direct responsibility for both (A) defining and (B) proving it.

According to Wiki
A native speaker of a language has the following traits:

1. The speaker learnt the language [nonstop] in childhood [in the country/neighborhood],
2. Mastery of [popular] idiomatic forms of the language,
3. Comprehension of regional and social [class] variance,
4. Fluent, spontaneous production and comprehension of discourse.


So, one should (1) meet the criteria, (2) consider himself as a "native", (3) be accepted as one by other natives, and (4) maintain the language competency and culture awareness. Shortly, a perceived "nativeness" is just a language superstructure--a set of featured biases and patterns.
Funny, so many native speakers (not to mention foreigners) believe I'm from Canada)


However, the topic is about allegedly "unfair" treatment 'natives vs. non-natives', which is actually no problem: free/contract markets purport "one at the expense of the other" approach, where you either "one" (who can do biz properly), or the "other", struggling somewhere below--depending on the "ignorance" weight.


 

Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:49
Romanian to English
+ ...
Natives feeling themselves and other animals Apr 14

Eliza Hall wrote:

Chris S wrote:

DZiW wrote:
Thus technically and juridically it's simpler just ask "Do you feel yourself relatively as a native speaker?" (whatever it might imply)

... I feel myself regularly as a native speaker


Hahahaha! I feel myself coming down with a headache. What's causing it is all this throwing about of utterly non-native expressions such as "juridically" and "feel yourself relatively as a native speaker."


Don't laugh that hard Sometimes even native translators must use that funny expression, especially in philosophical texts where the self and the various forms of ... feeling it must be conveyed. Robert Lamberton uses it twice in his excellent translation of Maurice Blanchot's Thomas the Obscure I'm sure there are other examples.


 

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 01:49
Member (2018)
French to English
+ ...
Still not buying it Apr 14

Annamaria Amik wrote:

Eliza Hall wrote:

Chris S wrote:

DZiW wrote:
Thus technically and juridically it's simpler just ask "Do you feel yourself relatively as a native speaker?" (whatever it might imply)

... I feel myself regularly as a native speaker


Hahahaha! I feel myself coming down with a headache. What's causing it is all this throwing about of utterly non-native expressions such as "juridically" and "feel yourself relatively as a native speaker."


Don't laugh that hard Sometimes even native translators must use that funny expression, especially in philosophical texts where the self and the various forms of ... feeling it must be conveyed. Robert Lamberton uses it twice in his excellent translation of Maurice Blanchot's Thomas the Obscure I'm sure there are other examples.


"Feel myself as X" is a turn of phrase that could be used in philosophical texts, sure. But you can't use "feel myself as" with any damn thing you please in place of the X. Only some words or phrases would both make sense AND sound natural as the X in that turn of phrase. So my question to you is, does Lamberton actually say "feel myself [or himself, etc.] as a native speaker"? As an actual native speaker, I'm guessing that either:

(a) he doesn't, or

(b) if he does, he doesn't mean "I feel myself TO BE a native speaker" -- rather, it would be in a locution something like this: "I feel myself, as a native speaker, better able to understand the nuances..." (in other words, I feel that, because I am a native speaker, I am better able to understand the nuances).


[Edited at 2019-04-14 14:49 GMT]


Yvonne Gallagher
Kay Denney
 

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:49
Serbian to English
+ ...
Just use the "N" word ... Apr 14

and you can be 101% sure of generating a lively debate ... never failed!

This thread has at least the merit of looking at "nativeness" under a new angle, not that presenting "nativeness" as a pretext for discrimination (presumably unacceptable) makes it any more likely to create anything remotely resembling a consensus. Still more or less the same predictable divides - plus ça change plus c'est pareil.


 

writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Feel you're missing out on jobs because of the native language/national origin issue? Apr 14

No problem. Just do as thousands have done before you. Go to your profile page and make your wish language your native language (or one of your native languages) and make any other claim that you feel will help your cause.
There is no rule that states that a profile page has to be truthful in any way and so you are completely free to readjust your native language in any way and as often as you wish. Join the crowd...

...
See more
No problem. Just do as thousands have done before you. Go to your profile page and make your wish language your native language (or one of your native languages) and make any other claim that you feel will help your cause.
There is no rule that states that a profile page has to be truthful in any way and so you are completely free to readjust your native language in any way and as often as you wish. Join the crowd...

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Rachel Fell
Yvonne Gallagher
 

Jean Dimitriadis  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 07:49
Member
English to French
+ ...
For what's worth Apr 14

As far as “rules” go, most ProZ members have endorsed ProZ.com’s Professional Guidelines, which, among other things, means they are expected to “represent their capabilities, credentials and levels of experience honestly and accurately”.

Of course, this mostly looks good on paper, but still…

Anyway, I don’t see the point of misrepresenting yourself if you can’t “deliver the goods
... See more
As far as “rules” go, most ProZ members have endorsed ProZ.com’s Professional Guidelines, which, among other things, means they are expected to “represent their capabilities, credentials and levels of experience honestly and accurately”.

Of course, this mostly looks good on paper, but still…

Anyway, I don’t see the point of misrepresenting yourself if you can’t “deliver the goods”. (Just an expression, no commodification intended.)

[Edited at 2019-04-14 17:09 GMT]
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DZiW
 

Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:49
Romanian to English
+ ...
Lamberton Apr 14

Eliza Hall wrote:

"Feel myself as X" is a turn of phrase that could be used in philosophical texts, sure. But you can't use "feel myself as" with any damn thing you please in place of the X. Only some words or phrases would both make sense AND sound natural as the X in that turn of phrase. So my question to you is, does Lamberton actually say "feel myself [or himself, etc.] as a native speaker"? As an actual native speaker, I'm guessing that either:

(a) he doesn't, or

(b) if he does, he doesn't mean "I feel myself TO BE a native speaker" -- rather, it would be in a locution something like this: "I feel myself, as a native speaker, better able to understand the nuances..." (in other words, I feel that, because I am a native speaker, I am better able to understand the nuances).


The Lamberton reference was meant to show that sometimes it's the very knowledge of the other's non-nativeness that makes her choice of words sound funnier than it is. Of course, in his translation there was no "as" after the "feel myself" But if I knew that he was not a native speaker, I would find something to smile at even in his perfect "I feel myself directed by the night toward the night".

I do agree with everything you wrote, by the way. I think DZiW meant to say: "I perceive myself as a native speaker".


DZiW
 
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