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The extra mile
Thread poster: Andrew Morris

Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Germany
Local time: 18:09
Member (2016)
English to German
Very interesting thought Apr 30

Michael Wetzel wrote:

Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
Which leaves me with the problem that I have now always more work than I can handle. I can only solve that by driving my rates up and it seems that cements my "premium" image even more. A vicious circle…


This is the point that I was trying to get at: You can also solve the problem by taking back some of that flexibility, possibly driving your rates (and very probably your annual earnings) down some in the process. That can be a good deal or a bad deal, depending on your situation.


Michael, this is actually a very interesting thought. It was less than two years ago that I decided to go full time as a freelancer, after a long life as an employee. It seems I am still in the "drive everything to the max" mode. I want to see how far I can get, earnings-wise, and it is still a somewhat strange feeling not to have a regular paycheck in the bank, so that I want and need the extra cash in order to feel safe. On the other hand, I'm in my mid-fifties and should not carry it to extremes…

Of course, the optimal outcome would be if I can command high rates and manage to work only few hours. Hmm…


Zeineb Nalouti
 

Paweł Hamerski
Local time: 18:09
English to Polish
+ ...
I just wonder as I never did PR/marketing glossing over job Apr 30

I can be asked about whether some legal expression is correct (or rather better suited in this case) but this? Not my business (call it as you like but a moment...how was the name translated originally and why you want to change it? Ah... we are not talking about translation? No? Then about what?).
That was my thought.
Are we talking about translation or not?


 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 18:09
Member
English to Italian
Agree, but... Apr 30

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

I think most of us know that very well and wish to acquire more direct clients. Do you think ProZ could make some actual improvements in helping us do so? It has been a topic for years.


That would be nice, in terms of marketing and improved visibility toward that target audience, although I am afraid that when an end client needs "the full package" (TEP, DTP, localization engineers, project management, etc.), especially if in multiple pairs, they just reach out to agencies to get it, thus greatly simplifying things on their end... And BTW, agencies are proz.com clients as well, so...

Furthermore, the impression I got in my years in translation (and especially in localization), is that translation is often seen as an afterthought, with everything this entails. Just to make an example: very often software and game developers have all kinds of internal roles, from accountants to project managers, to community mangers, to software engineers to graphic designers, to copywriters, to QA testers, etc. etc., BUT then they outsource translation, as if it wasn't something that's an integral part of the "product" they're offering, like the other "components"...


Katalin Horváth McClure
 

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
It all begins in the mind Apr 30

Without picking out any one response in particular, I'd make one observation here: if we start out with the idea that the client is our adversary, unscrupulously trying to pull a fast one, then I would suggest it's a giant leap indeed to creating a portfolio of direct clients and enjoying healthy collegial relationships with them.

Now you can call this "fluff" (and believe me, many do), but for me, it all begins with an attitude shift. Until we embrace the possibility that we can e
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Without picking out any one response in particular, I'd make one observation here: if we start out with the idea that the client is our adversary, unscrupulously trying to pull a fast one, then I would suggest it's a giant leap indeed to creating a portfolio of direct clients and enjoying healthy collegial relationships with them.

Now you can call this "fluff" (and believe me, many do), but for me, it all begins with an attitude shift. Until we embrace the possibility that we can enter a win-win relationship with clients, then we are condemned to repeat the experience of feeling exploited, tricked, used and abused, and will keep attracting situations that prove our prejudices right.

I've mentioned before that I have worked with 60+ direct clients this year. Please believe me when I say I have no reason or urge to show off. There's just no need to. I'm simply trying to work out what's going on, and to share whatever learning can be gleaned from that experience.

I firmly believe there's enough clients to go round for all of us. And we don't need 60, either. I run a business and send work out to 10+ people per month. If all we really want to do is translate, and do the work ourselves, 6 good clients is a VERY healthy starting place.

And I am not necessarily any better at the art and craft of translation than anyone here. True, we've all met bad translators and seen appalling translations, but let's assume, for the sake of argument, that in this thread we all share a level of care and competence that meets the grade. Everything about the way you write, and what you have written in various threads I've seen, suggests that you care about the quality of your work. Skill is therefore clearly not the main differentiator here.

So how come? Did I just get lucky? Sixty times?

Word of mouth certainly played a big role, but even that comes down to service just as much as it does to polished texts. 90% of the time, the clients can't tell anyway whether your actual work is excellent, or merely good, or substandard.

And let's assume also that we all meet the minimum criteria every translator knows: reliability, punctuality, research, nevermissedadeadline etc etc etc...

So if I'm not holding myself up as an outstanding translator, and I don't have an MBA, and I don't even do any marketing in the normal sense of the word (no calling new clients, no LinkedIn activity to boast about, no trade fairs since 2014) – and if we don't believe in divine intervention – then something is going on.

I use my example (the one I know best) only to provoke questions, not to focus attention on me. Again, I don't really need that. I'm just trying to suggest there may be something more to all this than the quality of our adjectives or the fact that we deliver on time.

And I am all ears as to any alternative explanations. Sincerely.
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Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:09
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Yes, the issue of rare languages and specializations May 1

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

That would be nice, in terms of marketing and improved visibility toward that target audience, although I am afraid that when an end client needs "the full package" (TEP, DTP, localization engineers, project management, etc.), especially if in multiple pairs, they just reach out to agencies to get it, thus greatly simplifying things on their end...


You bring up an interesting point. Andrew says there is plenty of work to go around, but I think there is a difference between the more common and the less common language pairs and specializations. For example, in my experience, Hungarian translation is rarely required on its own: it is usually one of many languages a project gets translated into. There are of course exceptions, occasionally I do get requests from direct clients for working on a project that is Hungarian only. However, these are rare and typically small volume projects and even if the client comes back (typically with text updates), there isn't enough repetition to represent a significant share of my income.
Most of the time the translation projects I am involved with are multilingual, and as you said, due to the apparent convenience of using a one-stop-shop, are trusted to agencies.
There are exceptions, of course. I currently have three direct clients who have multilingual translation projects that they manage in-house. They do outsource the work to freelance translators like myself, but they manage the projects themselves. The largest one of these clients is a huge industrial manufacturing firm with a technical documentation department where they invested into CAT-tools and project management personnel. As you can probably guess, it is almost like an agency. Again, projects in my language pair aren't frequent these days, mostly updates, max. 2-3 a year. Certainly wouldn't feed me.

On top of the rarity of the language, there is the issue of specialization: I do not translate everything, I focus mostly on technical translations, and that, again, narrows the scope of potential direct clients. Agencies, as it is now, seem to be in a better position to aggregate work and distribute it to the appropriately specialized translator. (Whether this is actually happening in a successful manner, that is another question.)

There is one thing though, that may be interesting. The work with that large industrial manufacturing client I mentioned above started with a huge project: over 100,000 words in less than a month, over Xmas. We formed a team with two colleagues whom I got to know here on ProZ. We used the only collaborative tool that was available back then on ProZ - a private forum - to discuss terminology and other issues. We sent TM exports back-and-forth daily via email as a way of synchronizing our TMs. (This was more than 10 years ago!) It all worked out, everything got translated on time, proofread on time and we did not kill each other. We have collaborated regularly on other projects ever since (mostly for agencies, though).

Perhaps one approach that ProZ could take is to facilitate these kind of collaborations for teams who are willing to work together, either in a single language pair, or covering multiple languages, and market that capability towards potential direct clients. They may see it as an attractive alternative. --- I don't know, I am just thinking aloud here.


[Edited at 2019-05-01 03:00 GMT]


Andrew Morris
 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:09
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Individual or agency? May 1

Andrew Morris wrote:
I've mentioned before that I have worked with 60+ direct clients this year.
...
I run a business and send work out to 10+ people per month.


Could you clarify whether the 60+ direct clients you mentioned were YOUR personal direct clients - that is, did they ask you to translate texts for them only in your own language pair and in your own specialization?
Or were they clients who needed those texts translated into multiple languages that you then outsourced (as an agency, effectively)?


 

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
In a sense, it doesn't matter May 1

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

Andrew Morris wrote:
I've mentioned before that I have worked with 60+ direct clients this year.
...
I run a business and send work out to 10+ people per month.


Could you clarify whether the 60+ direct clients you mentioned were YOUR personal direct clients - that is, did they ask you to translate texts for them only in your own language pair and in your own specialization?
Or were they clients who needed those texts translated into multiple languages that you then outsourced (as an agency, effectively)?


First of all, thanks for the clarification on the Hungarian issue. Effectively that does make for a different context from the languages most people seem to be working in here.

As for my clients, they are mine in the sense that they ended up one fine day in my inbox, either because I met them socially and pitched to them, or they were sent to me by other clients, or – in very rare cases – they just found me on Google or came across my website.

I am their only point of contact. Of course I don't do all the work – I've been outsourcing more specialist parts of my portfolio for years, but I do the revision and all the communication with the client, and still do a few hours a day translating (much less this month since taking up this role).

Around 80% of all the work that comes in is FR>EN (my combination), around 10% is EN>FR, in which case I turn to a long-standing collaborator, and the rest is either ES>EN (my new combination) or multilingual.

Over the years I've had around 5 or 6 clients (mostly in travel but also one artisanal ice cream company) who occasionally require FR, DE, NL, ES, PT and IT too, so I manage those, with a group of regular translators I've met mostly through social media and have stuck with, who are in turn revised by others.

But for the purposes of this discussion, in a sense the key is to go out and CATCH the clients in the first place. Once you've got them, you can do the work, outsource the work, or any combination of the two. Of course you then have to produce the goods, otherwise they swim away again.

Hooking a client is the difficult part. Keeping them is much easier, most of the time. People want easy lives, and will only tend to leave if you screw up, or there's a staff change, or they go bust...

PS Never been asked for "TEP, DTP, localization engineers" in ten years. All my clients have their own DTP services. I have no idea what TEP even stands for. But then again I'm mostly in academia and the arts...


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:09
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
It does matter, Andrew - you are an agency May 1

Andrew Morris wrote:

First of all, thanks for the clarification on the Hungarian issue. Effectively that does make for a different context from the languages most people seem to be working in here.

There are hundreds of language pairs offered by freelancers here, not only the big ones. I used Hungarian because that is one of my languages, but I think freelancers working in many other pairs could tell you the same thing.

As for my clients, they are mine in the sense that they ended up one fine day in my inbox, either because I met them socially and pitched to them, or they were sent to me by other clients, or – in very rare cases – they just found me on Google or came across my website.

Of course, they are your clients. But they are not "direct clients" who work directly with the freelance translators. They would be direct clients if they skipped you and worked directly with the people you are outsourcing to.

I am their only point of contact. Of course I don't do all the work – I've been outsourcing more specialist parts of my portfolio for years, but I do the revision and all the communication with the client, and still do a few hours a day translating (much less this month since taking up this role).

Yes, that is exactly what agencies do, typically. Point if contact, outsourcing to multiple specialists, and take care of quality control.

Around 80% of all the work that comes in is FR>EN (my combination), around 10% is EN>FR, in which case I turn to a long-standing collaborator, and the rest is either ES>EN (my new combination) or multilingual.

Ok, so large languages and multilingual. Exactly what Mirko and I were talking about.

Over the years I've had around 5 or 6 clients (mostly in travel but also one artisanal ice cream company) who occasionally require FR, DE, NL, ES, PT and IT too, so I manage those, with a group of regular translators I've met mostly through social media and have stuck with, who are in turn revised by others.

You are an agency, then.

But for the purposes of this discussion, in a sense the key is to go out and CATCH the clients in the first place.

Yes, but the excellent marketing skills, extra mile, mindset and such don't matter if you cannot offer what the client needs in the first place, i.e. if you are not a one-stop-shop.

Once you've got them, you can do the work, outsource the work, or any combination of the two.

So, the "mindset" is essentially to turn yourself into an agency. Otherwise, you can bend backwards, lick the boots of the client and all, it won't matter, because - again - you can't satisfy the client's basic requirement in the first place (full process - TEP, DTP included, or multilingual services).

Hooking a client is the difficult part.

Yes, we are in agreement on that. But there are significant challenges that freelancers face, when competing with agencies, as explained above.

Keeping them is much easier, most of the time. People want easy lives, and will only tend to leave if you screw up, or there's a staff change, or they go bust...

Exactly. Hence their preference for easy solutions, i.e. "one-stop-shop".

PS Never been asked for "TEP, DTP, localization engineers" in ten years. All my clients have their own DTP services. I have no idea what TEP even stands for. But then again I'm mostly in academia and the arts...

TEP= Translation + Editing + Proofreading (typically by 3 different people, to be meaningful).

In your post you invited alternative explanations. I am not discrediting the "soft skills" you seem to be promoting, not at all, those are very important, but I tend to think that the fundamental reason you were able to "hook" those clients in the first place is the fact that you are an agency. Just think about it. Would any of the freelancers that you outsource to be able to work with your clients directly? My guess is not, unless they start copying what you do (essentially, acting as an agency).

In my vocabulary, "direct client" means a client that works with the freelancer directly, without a middleman.


mughwI
Mirko Mainardi
writeaway
David Hayes
 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 18:09
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Agree (written in bold) May 1

Andrew Morris wrote:

I am their only point of contact. Of course I don't do all the work – I've been outsourcing more specialist parts of my portfolio for years, but I do the revision and all the communication with the client, and still do a few hours a day translating (much less this month since taking up this role).

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:


Yes, that is exactly what agencies do, typically. Point if contact, outsourcing to multiple specialists, and take care of quality control.

In my vocabulary, "direct client" means a client that works with the freelancer directly, without a middleman.


 

Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:09
German to English
+ ...
looking at OP and "extra mile" etc. May 1

I read this:
Andrew Morris wrote:

And now, just as I am packing my bags for Bologna, folding my shirts and counting my socks (as you do), an urgent message pops up on my mobile: "Can I use the words 'Tourist Magazine' in the title?"

and my immediate thought was, how can "Can I use the words....." be urgent? But perhaps in the context of that project it was.

Here are some urgent situations of clients that I have responded to:
- a stranger has driven 100 miles to the get his Canadian driving license, discovers that in Ont. the international license doesn't count, and he needs his foreign license translated by a certified translator. I accept the work, he drives over, goes for a coffee, picks up the translation and gets his Cdn license.
- a client gets an unexpected job offer and interview, and the desired documents are not in English - interview is tomorrow; phone call was today
- other true emergency situations

Sometimes it can indeed by a matter of disorganization, leaving things to the last minute, by the person who contacts you. The situation nonetheless ends up being urgent. The only caveat is that the disorganized careless person will continue being that way with you, and may be difficult to work with.

The flip side of this is - and here I have a bit of an argument about control of one's time --- If you are ready to deal with emergencies, you yourself must be well organized and in control of your time and your life. If you jump at the very moment when clients want you to jump, you will become exhausted, your life in a shambles, and you will probably end up working inefficiently, start making mistakes etc.

"Going the extra mile" in my view does not involve answering e-mails with random freebie questions, right away. It's a judgment call in regard to whether a thing is really as urgent as it is made out to be, and whether you are the person to deal with that emergency.


 

Andrew Morris

Posted via
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ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
Circles May 1

I think we are going round in circles a little.

I only became an agency because I had too many direct clients as a freelancer. And when they approach me, they don’t know I am an agency, even though I make no secret of the fact that I work with a team.

I am a translator and a businessman. I don’t see the two as in conflict. And if you do (general “you”) then that might just account for the predicament you describe?

Attracting clients to you is not a
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I think we are going round in circles a little.

I only became an agency because I had too many direct clients as a freelancer. And when they approach me, they don’t know I am an agency, even though I make no secret of the fact that I work with a team.

I am a translator and a businessman. I don’t see the two as in conflict. And if you do (general “you”) then that might just account for the predicament you describe?

Attracting clients to you is not a morally dubious pursuit. I also happen to pay well and fast, and work with translators who have shown less inclination to go out and find clients.

Finally, on soft skills: they are not my invention. They permeate the entire business community. Ignore them if you will, but also understand and accept the consequences.
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Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:09
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
Actually..... May 1

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

I think most of us know that very well and wish to acquire more direct clients. Do you think ProZ could make some actual improvements in helping us do so? It has been a topic for years.


....there is a Proz-owned platform where (direct) clients can find us, namely TM-Town. I am listed in the top 3 with all my language combinations and expertises, but in the 3 or 4 years I am on it, the results were zippo.

So, if Proz would come with a way to contact direct clients, they would have to come with a better system than TM-Town, which (for me) proofed worthless.

[Edited at 2019-05-01 14:59 GMT]

[Edited at 2019-05-01 15:06 GMT]


Mirko Mainardi
Jo Macdonald
missdutch
 

Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 18:09
Member (2018)
French to English
emergencies May 1

Maxi Schwarz wrote:

I read this:
Andrew Morris wrote:

And now, just as I am packing my bags for Bologna, folding my shirts and counting my socks (as you do), an urgent message pops up on my mobile: "Can I use the words 'Tourist Magazine' in the title?"

and my immediate thought was, how can "Can I use the words....." be urgent? But perhaps in the context of that project it was.


It's urgent because the client is sending it to the printer. Just as he's about to sign off, the boss says 'I thought it was supposed to be called "Tourist Magazine", why does it say "Travel"?' So the poor secretary has to get back to the translator to check. She'll be in trouble if she doesn't sort it out.

Of course it's not an emergency like a medical report for someone in a coma or the instances you described, Maxi. It's only an emergency because the client is badly organised. But Andrew saved them from producing a magazine that nobody will even open and made sure that people interested in travel will at least realise that it caters to them.

An emergency for one of my clients: they had used an agency to give their corporate identity a facelift. Their baseline was to be bilingual and the translation was included in their price, so the client didn't ask us as usual. She rang me up in tears, she was being given a very humiliating dressing-down by the boss at a board meeting because the translation didn't even make sense. She needed me to come up with something pronto. I promised to think the matter over and get back to her within the hour, since I'm not capable of coming up with a translation while talking on the phone.
She was truly grateful when I got back to her with a zippy baseline that made sense.
The emergency was because her job was on the line and she managed to prove that she could find a decent translator for the job in hand, before the end of the board meeting.


Andrew Morris
Elizabeth Tamblin
 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:09
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
No circles, just an alternative explanation May 1

Andrew Morris wrote:

I only became an agency because I had too many direct clients as a freelancer.

In other words: "As a standalone freelancer, I could not offer the capacity that direct clients needed."
Precisely my point.

And when they approach me, they don’t know I am an agency, even though I make no secret of the fact that I work with a team.

I can fully believe that. It is not the point. I could be at the same conference/trade show or in the same online directory as you are, and the same client can approach both of us, however, when they state that they need/want/prefer multilingual services as a package, and if I don't offer that, the story pretty much stops. They can still take my business card, be very nice and perhaps say "we will recommend you to the multilingual agency we are going to contract with", but in reality, it probably won't work. And that is not because of my inability to "attract" the client, or go the extra mile, but because of their fundamental needs were a much better fit for an agency.

I am a translator and a businessman. I don’t see the two as in conflict.

I don't see that as a conflict either. Freelancers are businesspeople, too. We are all running our own businesses. It is a very important concept, one that does not seem to be internalized by many freelancers, especially the beginners. ProZ (the platform) have been doing quite a bit of education in this area, I think, through ProZ sponsored activities, and through the forum posts of more seasoned professionals, but I think there is still a ways to go.
(Sidenote: if you want to read some very good, practical advice from a seasoned professional who helped many of us with his ideas, look up posts by José Henrique Lamensdorf. He sadly passed away recently, but his ideas are preserved here on the fora.)

that might just account for the predicament you describe?

Frankly, I don't see the situation I described as a "predicament". It is simply how the market is these days.
I think you agree that client relationships are comprised of many pieces, some are essential, some are not essential but expected, and some are truly the "extra mile". The difference is, that from the point of view of a standalone freelancer vs. an agency, these categories are not the same, and the ability to provide those pieces is essentially different.
Again, I can go the extra-extra mile, I can be the most accurate, creative, reliable and punctual freelancer, I have limitations that are inherent to my role in the "translation food chain". When you say "It is all begins in the mind", I have to say, yes, and it ends there well, because at some point one must recognize the realities of the business, and that the clients are running a business, too, so they will have to make decisions that improves (or at least does not hurt) their bottom line.

Attracting clients to you is not a morally dubious pursuit. I also happen to pay well and fast, and work with translators who have shown less inclination to go out and find clients.


I think what you are saying here is that agencies are not bad. I agree. They are part of the business, part of the market. For some, they may be only a stepping stone, but for those who do not aspire to become agencies themselves, agencies may be the most important partners that they can have in working towards success.
There is no need to get defensive, Andrew. Nobody is attacking you for being an agency. Seriously. As for me, I was trying to point out some factors that in my opinion play a role in your success of getting end clients work with you (your agency) - factors that from your posts seemed like you have not considered, but may affect the applicability of your advice to standalone freelancers. That's all.

An idea: You could offer very valuable insights as an owner/manager of a boutique agency. For example, what makes you chose one translator over another? What skills/personality traits etc. do you consider when outsourcing a job? How do you manage the relationship between translators and editors (collaborative method, Chinese wall, circular feedback, etc?)

Finally, on soft skills: they are not my invention. They permeate the entire business community. Ignore them if you will, but also understand and accept the consequences.

Nobody suggested to ignore soft skills. They are important. It is just that in many situations, it is the "hard substance" that matters first and foremost. If you can't satisfy the client's essential needs, then no soft skills will help, I am afraid.


 

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
Angels dancing on the head of a pin May 1

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

I could be at the same conference/trade show or in the same online directory as you are, and the same client can approach both of us, however, when they state that they need/want/prefer multilingual services as a package, and if I don't offer that, the story pretty much stops.


But I already pointed out that multilingual work is 5% of my total portfolio. There is nothing to stop the people who work for/with me going out and finding similar clients. Nothing, that is, except their own reluctance to do so. Which is fair enough, if that's what they want. But it is a totally level playing field 95% of the time.

I think you agree that client relationships are comprised of many pieces, some are essential, some are not essential but expected, and some are truly the "extra mile". The difference is, that from the point of view of a standalone freelancer vs. an agency, these categories are not the same, and the ability to provide those pieces is essentially different.


Not so, 95% of the time.


As for me, I was trying to point out some factors that in my opinion play a role in your success of getting end clients work with you (your agency) - factors that from your posts seemed like you have not considered, but may affect the applicability of your advice to standalone freelancers. That's all..


Fair enough, but I think you are exaggerating the difference. Most of my jobs are single texts, somewhere between 500 and 10,000 words. Into one language. I simply have too many of them, but any single freelancer could take on any one of them and deliver to a client pretty much alone.

An idea: You could offer very valuable insights as an owner/manager of a boutique agency. For example, what makes you chose one translator over another? What skills/personality traits etc. do you consider when outsourcing a job? How do you manage the relationship between translators and editors (collaborative method, Chinese wall, circular feedback, etc?)


I've worked with most of my people for years. They divide broadly into science, business and arts, but within those categories are pretty interchangeable, i.e. if one is busy there are two more I can turn to in each category. In a simple operation like mine, they deliver, I revise and forward to client. At times, whenever there is a query, a dialogue ensues. Or if I make a big change. Otherwise we simply move on to the next project.

Nobody suggested to ignore soft skills. They are important. It is just that in many situations, it is the "hard substance" that matters first and foremost. If you can't satisfy the client's essential needs, then no soft skills will help, I am afraid.


I think I've said this myself, several times. In fact I've got in to the habit of saying it in every piece I ever write, as there's always someone on hand to say "But what about the quality of the actual translation?"

For me it's a total given. If the translation is no good, the dialogue stops right there, no matter how nice or flexible anyone is...


Elizabeth Tamblin
 
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