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The extra mile
Thread poster: Andrew Morris

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
Maybe you should bother May 4

David Hayes wrote:

I read the first post in this thread, which seems to be asking the question: "Should you do someone a favour within the context of client/service provider relationship or should you always make the client pay down to the last centime?"
In order to make the world a nicer place, I don't see how you could do otherwise than opt for a quick favour. If the client really appreciates it, so much the better. If not, you will be doing it for your own sense of what is right. I don't quite see the point of this thread. The answer seems obvious.

I haven't bothered with the rest of this thread, which seems to be rehearsing opt-quoted advice about how to get more work, win over clients, be the best and most successful translator in the world, blah, blah, blah. All been said a thousand times before by so many other self-appointed business gurus.


Well if you had bothered, (although in fact you do seem to have, otherwise how would you know its contents???) you'd see that the initial premise is anything but a given.

There is every shade of opinion from "duh, of course" to "if you give an inch, clients will exploit you mercilessly and they need potty-training".

If you see that as a uniform set of opinions, then maybe your critical judgement needs a work-out down the brain gym.

Besides, is there a single question anywhere in this forum that hasn't been asked before? Or anywhere in life? It's all there in Ecclesiastes (substitute religious text of choice). But the world changes, and circumstances change with it.

If a question has no interest, it withers on the vine. If people answer, ergo it has interest. If, on the other hand, it has no interest for you in particular, you are (for the thousandth time?) free to divert your attention elsewhere, rather than devoting precious moments of your brief spell on Earth to commenting on its futility.

Oh and finally, there is no such thing as a self-appointed business guru. A guru only becomes a guru when people listen, otherwise they're just a madman crying into the wind.

Anyway, it's only in translation that the word guru has such negative connotations. I can think of far worse insults. In most dictionaries it goes like this: "a Hindu spiritual teacher. synonyms: teacher, tutor, sage, counsellor, mentor, guiding light, spiritual leader, leader, master."

None of which labels, incidentally, has been claimed by anyone in this thread, as far as I can see.


Elizabeth Tamblin
 

David Hayes  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 07:47
Member (2009)
French to English
Not sure... May 4

why you feel the need to be so agressive and 'clever'. Where did I use the expression "a uniform set of opinions"? And does a current guru become a madman when people stop listening to him/her (for whatever reason)? Who said the term 'guru' was an insult? Not me. See you down the brain gym!


I second another comment I've just seen:

"But no one should feel intimidated about expressing their own opinion and/or be ridiculed or patronised for deciding to delete it. W
... See more
why you feel the need to be so agressive and 'clever'. Where did I use the expression "a uniform set of opinions"? And does a current guru become a madman when people stop listening to him/her (for whatever reason)? Who said the term 'guru' was an insult? Not me. See you down the brain gym!


I second another comment I've just seen:

"But no one should feel intimidated about expressing their own opinion and/or be ridiculed or patronised for deciding to delete it. What is this site turning into? Translation seems to be less important by the day."
Collapse


Chris S
Natasha Ziada
IT>EN Legal
 

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
Well then... May 4

David Hayes wrote:

why you feel the need to be so agressive and 'clever'. Where did I use the expression "a uniform set of opinions"? And does a current guru become a madman when people stop listening to him/her (for whatever reason)? Who said the term 'guru' was an insult? Not me. See you down the brain gym!


I second another comment I've just seen:

"But no one should feel intimidated about expressing their own opinion and/or be ridiculed or patronised for deciding to delete it. What is this site turning into? Translation seems to be less important by the day."


Well then shall we return to translation? You're the one who said the thread was full of clichés and "opt-quoted" (sic!) advice, not to mention "blah blah blah" (sic), thereby insulting just about every other contributor?

It's true you did not say "uniform set of opinions" but if you look REALLY closely, you'll see I didn't use quotation marks. We all paraphrase. That's how this language thing works.

I'm happy to debate the original question. Less interested, to be perfectly frank (but neither aggressive [a word I always prefer with a double 'g'] nor clever), in whether you think it's a good question or not.


Elizabeth Tamblin
 

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
oh and before I forget... May 4

This has been a long and productive discussion (in my humble opinion) in which we have jousted, agreed, disagreed, and all in a fairly civil manner, with a few forgivable exceptions.

The discussions that met my initial entry into this august forum, about how a representative of ProZ.com should behave, have been superseded by the fact that Henry gave me a very clear mandate to behave as me.

That's why he hired me.

So while I will certainly refrain from makin
... See more
This has been a long and productive discussion (in my humble opinion) in which we have jousted, agreed, disagreed, and all in a fairly civil manner, with a few forgivable exceptions.

The discussions that met my initial entry into this august forum, about how a representative of ProZ.com should behave, have been superseded by the fact that Henry gave me a very clear mandate to behave as me.

That's why he hired me.

So while I will certainly refrain from making unwise comments about the forum as a whole, and certainly avoid any ad hominem attacks on others' personalities (rather than their opinions, or their spelling, as language professionals), I feel entirely at leisure to be just as combative and feisty as anyone else here.

Although to be perfectly honest, I'd FAR rather get on and debate the issues in a friendly way, which does not preclude the occasional use of gentle irony. It's just easier all round.

Just sayin'
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Elizabeth Tamblin
 

Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:47
Member (2012)
French to English
. May 4

writeaway wrote:

Michele Fauble wrote:






[Edited at 2019-05-02 20:35 GMT]


Title: No idea what was written here
But no one should feel intimidated about expressing their own opinion and/or be ridiculed or patronised for deciding to delete it. What is this site turning into? Translation seems to be less important by the day.


If you had seen what was written, you would perhaps change your mind on that.


 

David Hayes  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 07:47
Member (2009)
French to English
Goodbye May 4

Andrew, you really have lowered the tone of this thread (and focusing on typos rather than addressing issues in this type of exchange suggests you are more interested in trying to frame me as stupid). Fortunately, your opinion is of no interest to me.

Tom in London
Michal Fabian
writeaway
Michele Fauble
Helen Shiner
Jane F
Katalin Horváth McClure
 

Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:47
Member (2012)
French to English
Weird May 4

People make rude and dismissive comments, and when the recipient sticks up for himself, he's accused of being aggressive. Go figure.

Kay Denney
Andrew Morris
 

Andrew Morris

Posted via
ProZ.com Mobile



ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
Excuse me????? May 4

David Hayes wrote:

focusing on typos rather than addressing issues in this type of exchange




There have been 80 comments (from memory), the first 75 of which all focused on issues rather than typos. We engaged robustly but politely throughout. And real differences are aired.

You claim not to have read the comments, so you are in no position to judge.

Meanwhile, your own initial post raises no issues at all. Not one. It just throws a few lazy punches.

We can do better than that.


Elizabeth Tamblin
 

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:47
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Childish May 4

Until about 2 weeks ago these discussions were always professional, but since then they have become very childish, and I think I know why.

David Hayes
mughwI
Michal Fabian
Michele Fauble
Helen Shiner
Jane F
Jennifer White
 

David Hayes  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 07:47
Member (2009)
French to English
Here's one May 4

"In order to make the world a nicer place, I don't see how you could do otherwise than opt for a quick favour. If the client really appreciates it, so much the better. If not, you will be doing it for your own sense of what is right."

The typos comment was for you alone. No one else.


 

Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:47
Member (2012)
French to English
Childish May 4

Tom in London wrote:

Until about 2 weeks ago these discussions were always professional, but since then they have become very childish, and I think I know why.




There has always been a negative, aggressive element here. That's why a lot of us don't participate as much as we might otherwise.


Colleen Roach, PhD
Chiara Foppa Pedretti
Luximar Arenas Petty
 

Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 23:47
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
All I wrote was ... May 4

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:

writeaway wrote:

Michele Fauble wrote:






[Edited at 2019-05-02 20:35 GMT]


Title: No idea what was written here
But no one should feel intimidated about expressing their own opinion and/or be ridiculed or patronised for deciding to delete it. What is this site turning into? Translation seems to be less important by the day.


If you had seen what was written, you would perhaps change your mind on that.


Reverting to type

He just can’t help himself, can he?


writeaway
Chris S
 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:47
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Positive contribution? May 4

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:
There has always been a negative, aggressive element here. That's why a lot of us don't participate as much as we might otherwise.


If your goal is to improve the situation, then it might be worth to take a second look at your own contributions to this thread.


writeaway
Chris S
IT>EN Legal
 

Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:47
Member (2012)
French to English
Hi Katalin May 4

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:
There has always been a negative, aggressive element here. That's why a lot of us don't participate as much as we might otherwise.


If your goal is to improve the situation, then it might be worth to take a second look at your own contributions to this thread.


So you're here to tell me off again.


 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 07:47
Member
English to Italian
Just like in "real life" May 4

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

Until about 2 weeks ago these discussions were always professional, but since then they have become very childish, and I think I know why.


There has always been a negative, aggressive element here. That's why a lot of us don't participate as much as we might otherwise.


I registered on proz like 9 or 10 years ago, and at first I too shunned the fora because I thought some users were unnecessarily arrogant, impolite, aggressive, patronizing, dismissive, you name it. But then, after lurking for a while, I finally decided to write anyway, and guess what? I'm not dead (yet). (So no, I don't actually agree with the "always" in Tom's statement quoted above)

If you think about it, it is completely absurd and unrealistic to think that a place (virtual or otherwise) must be perfect, all unicorns and rainbows, simply because that's NOT how things work, anywhere... There are rules, and we must (or at least should...) abide by them, and there are moderators to enforce them, but people ARE different, and you can't really expect everyone to be some sort of sales representative clone with a more or less fake smile on the face all the time (and at least they're paid for that)...

The efforts proz seems to be actively and increasingly making to turn these fora into some sort of utopia, where only "positive" and "results-oriented" stuff can exist and be seen, are not only unrealistic, but also positively wrong, in my opinion, in an Orwellian kind of way... and not only because people are different, as previously mentioned, but also because it is often important to bring to light and discuss negative things as well, instead of trying to silence and/or hide them.

Oh, and by the way, you are complaining about "negative, aggressive" behavior... but reading your lasts posts here, I don't really find them much different from what you're lamenting. And, again in in my opinion, there's also quite a difference between directing critiques toward a service (even by way of its representatives) and doing the same with an individual user (paying or not) of that service.

Edited to add "always".

[Edited at 2019-05-04 15:47 GMT]


writeaway
David Hayes
Robert Forstag
Yvonne Gallagher
Natasha Ziada
mughwI
Jane F
 
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