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Poll: Can a non-native speaker have a better command of a given language than a native speaker?
Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
Cristina Heraud-van Tol
Cristina Heraud-van Tol  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 04:59
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
I said "No" Nov 14, 2019

Because I have never met/seen a non-native speaker of Spanish speaking/writing flawless Spanish. In 100% of the cases they cannot pronounce the Spanish "r", in 80% of the cases they cannot pronounce the "j" or hard "g", in 70% of the cases they can't conjugate verbs correctly.

Xenia Solís Fuentes
Muriel Vasconcellos
 
LIZ LI
LIZ LI  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 17:59
French to Chinese
+ ...
Yes for sure but few Nov 14, 2019

Back in school we had a German professor who was able to speak nearly native level of Mandarin Chinese, he might even be able to discuss with us the most ambiguous topics about Confucius.
And Dashan (大山), or Mark Henry Rowswell from Canada, is probably one of the most famous foreigners in PRC, reputed for his Chinese literacy and knowledge about Chinese culture.
And he speaks bett
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Back in school we had a German professor who was able to speak nearly native level of Mandarin Chinese, he might even be able to discuss with us the most ambiguous topics about Confucius.
And Dashan (大山), or Mark Henry Rowswell from Canada, is probably one of the most famous foreigners in PRC, reputed for his Chinese literacy and knowledge about Chinese culture.
And he speaks better Mandarin than I do.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashan
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Elias Marios Kounas
Mónica Algazi
 
Philip Lees
Philip Lees  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 11:59
Greek to English
Definitely Nov 14, 2019

It's not difficult to imagine a non-native speaker showing better command of English than some world "leaders" who are native English speakers.

Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Kay Denney
Mario Freitas
Thayenga
Natasha Ziada (X)
Fatine Echenique
Vera Schoen
 
Gianluca Marras
Gianluca Marras  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 10:59
English to Italian
YES Nov 14, 2019

the question says "can", and yes, a non-native speaker can have a better command.
It depends on several factors obviously, but she/he can.


Vera Schoen
 
Khanya Ncube
Khanya Ncube
South Africa
Local time: 11:59
Afrikaans to English
+ ...
native speaker Nov 14, 2019

for me it's a yes because in our country we have 12 official languages and my native language is Afrikaans but i write and speak perfectly all the other languages

 
writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
With the same level of education? Not very likely with written language Nov 14, 2019

No matter how well a person masters the spoken language, writing it is a whole new ball game.
One doesn't have to read far, even in a highly academic, highly specialised text, to see that it wasn't written by a native speaker. Verb tenses, prepositions, phraseology are the most frequent pitfalls. Ideas etc. may be clearly expressed, lovely, field-specific vocabulary may be used but there are often/usually errors that a native speaker simply wouldn't make.
I think it's fairly safe t
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No matter how well a person masters the spoken language, writing it is a whole new ball game.
One doesn't have to read far, even in a highly academic, highly specialised text, to see that it wasn't written by a native speaker. Verb tenses, prepositions, phraseology are the most frequent pitfalls. Ideas etc. may be clearly expressed, lovely, field-specific vocabulary may be used but there are often/usually errors that a native speaker simply wouldn't make.
I think it's fairly safe to say that this applies for all languages.
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Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Jennifer White
Rachel Fell
Yvonne Gallagher
Fatine Echenique
Arkadiusz Jasiński
 
Muriel Vasconcellos
Muriel Vasconcellos  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:59
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Command? Nov 14, 2019

"Command" is a flexible word. Of course a non-native speaker can have better command of technical language in their specialty. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

On the other hand, in my 50-plus years working with translators and interpreters, living or traveling in foreign countries, and working every day in the office or otherwise hanging out with "bilinguals," I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't make slips in speaking or writing that reveal they are not native speakers i
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"Command" is a flexible word. Of course a non-native speaker can have better command of technical language in their specialty. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

On the other hand, in my 50-plus years working with translators and interpreters, living or traveling in foreign countries, and working every day in the office or otherwise hanging out with "bilinguals," I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't make slips in speaking or writing that reveal they are not native speakers in their learned language. I'm referring to usage, leaving spoken accent aside.

Spoken accents can be deceiving. I've met people so fluent in English that I could not detect an accent, yet little errors in usage would occasionally slip through.

On the other hand, I've seen highly educated people with usage problems in their native language or no true native language as a consequence of their life history. And I have seen ex-pats who lose fluency (vocabulary, current usage) in their native language. I felt that happening to myself when I lived in Mexico for two years, speaking Portuguese at home and Spanish everywhere else except with my American friends.

When it comes to writing in English, people cite Vladimir Nabokov as an example, but I recently learned that he had some help.

I say all this from my own experience as an American who has lived in multicultural situations. I understand that people growing up in a country with more than one official language would have a different point of view.

[Edited at 2019-11-14 20:27 GMT]
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Josephine Cassar
Elias Marios Kounas
Natasha Ziada (X)
Yvonne Gallagher
 
Elizabeth Tamblin
Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:59
French to English
Yes Nov 14, 2019

But in the context of translation, I would always prefer a native speaker of the given language.

 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:59
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Like with like. Nov 16, 2019

ProZ.com Staff wrote:

This forum topic is for the discussion of the poll question "Can a non-native speaker have a better command of a given language than a native speaker?".

This poll was originally submitted by Ilias Marios Kounas. View the poll results »



Of course! But you have to compare like with like.

A highly educated, articulate, well-read non-native speaker can speak a language better than an inarticulate, poorly educated native speaker who never reads anything.

[Edited at 2019-11-16 08:52 GMT]


Arkadiusz Jasiński
 
Guofei_LIN
Guofei_LIN  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 19:59
Chinese
No, you cannot Nov 16, 2019

If we ignore the complexities of the real world and make this a purely theoretical argument, then, native speakers will, ipso facto, have better command of their language simply because that language is defined by them, all non-native spekaers are just fakes. And no fakes in the world can be "better" than the real thing.

 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:59
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Fake Nov 16, 2019

Guofei_LIN wrote:

...all non-native spekaers are just fakes. And no fakes in the world can be "better" than the real thing.


I'd like to know how you can fake speaking a language. Maybe like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6dFEtb06nw


 
Guofei_LIN
Guofei_LIN  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 19:59
Chinese
Fake Nov 16, 2019

Tom in London wrote:

I'd like to know how you can fake speaking a language. Maybe like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6dFEtb06nw


In this context 'fake' refers to attempts at imitating the real thing. Even if the real thing has been so mangled like the Venus de Milo with her arms missing, you cannot win the game by restoring her arms for her.


 
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Poll: Can a non-native speaker have a better command of a given language than a native speaker?






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