| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | тараканье молоко - coackroach milk Thread poster: Elisa Comito
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Hello to everybody. Sorry if I write in English but I don't know Russian.
I am a literary translator and in an American novel which takes place in Russia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/mar/15/russian-dreambook-gina-ochsner), full of references to Russian (and Russian minorities') culture, I found this sentence (a woman is telling a story to her chi... See more Hello to everybody. Sorry if I write in English but I don't know Russian.
I am a literary translator and in an American novel which takes place in Russia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/mar/15/russian-dreambook-gina-ochsner), full of references to Russian (and Russian minorities') culture, I found this sentence (a woman is telling a story to her child):
"in the good times when matzoh still fell from the sky and men lay about up their elbows in cockroach milk..."
I would like to understand if the expression "lay in coackroack milk" means to lay lazily, while waiting for goods to come from the sky, or if it has other meanings.
In my researches (unfortunately limited due to language limitations) the only reference I found is to this story of Buhtan Buhtanovic:
http://www.hobbitaniya.ru/afanasyev/afanasyev101.php
I am very intrigued by this expression as we have nothing similiar. Does anybody know where the idea of "coackroach milk" came from?
Is it true, as I found through other resarches, that in Russia traditonally coackroaches (tarakan) are considered lucky animals, and almost domestic animals?
Thanks for your attention,
Elisa
P.S. You can answer me in English, Italian, French, Romanian. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Never heard before... | Dec 28, 2010 |
I have no idea concerning this idiom. I have never heard something like this... Seems, it's author's invention.
Seems, it 's mean the following: Bukhtan (hero) has everything he needs in big amounts. The cockroach milk means very rare thing in very small amounts (one can imagine, how much milk the cockroach can give ) !!!), but Bukhtan puts his arms into this milk to elbows (very big amount!).
HTH... See more I have no idea concerning this idiom. I have never heard something like this... Seems, it's author's invention.
Seems, it 's mean the following: Bukhtan (hero) has everything he needs in big amounts. The cockroach milk means very rare thing in very small amounts (one can imagine, how much milk the cockroach can give) !!!), but Bukhtan puts his arms into this milk to elbows (very big amount!).
HTH
)
[Редактировалось 2010-12-28 16:39 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Elisa Comito 
Local time: 04:55
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER
Nikolai Muraviev wrote:
I have no idea concerning this idiom. I have never heard something like this... Seems, it's author's invention.
Thank you for your answer, Nikolai. At least now I know that it's not a widespread idiom (although I found the reference it in that old story, perhaps the author found that, she liked it and decided to put that image in her book!). And can you tell me something about coackroaches? Are they normally considered lucky animals? I have read on a site that traditionaly when Russian people changed home they bought their tarakans with them!
Ciao,
Elisa
| | | | | coackroach milk origin | Dec 28, 2010 |
I got really curious about the expression as I had never heard it before although Russian is my native language. I checked your link and for what I see, it is mentioned in a rather unknown folk tale. I searched for the expression in google and found a book on folklore that contains reference to the folk tale:
Приведем еще один случай, который позволит нам начать
расшифровку. «В некотором царстве, в не... See more I got really curious about the expression as I had never heard it before although Russian is my native language. I checked your link and for what I see, it is mentioned in a rather unknown folk tale. I searched for the expression in google and found a book on folklore that contains reference to the folk tale:
Приведем еще один случай, который позволит нам начать
расшифровку. «В некотором царстве, в некотором государстве
живал, бывал некто Бухтан Бухтанович; у Бухтана Бухтановича
была выстроена середи поля печь на столбах. Он лежит на печи
по полулокоть в тараканьем молоке» [Афанасьев, 2 — 4, N
98; 5 - 7 , N 163].
«Тараканье молоко» символизирует, как и шесть пудов
пепла, которые сваливаются с героя, вековечное лежанье в
глубине печи.
http://dshinin.ru/Upload_Books3/Books/2010-08-14/201008141352211.pdf
It says that the exression means that the character has spent ages lying on the stove.
On the whole, coackroaches were considered lucky by peasants... but not to the degree of breeding them as pets ▲ Collapse
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cherepanov
Ukraine
Local time: 05:55
Member (2005)
English to Russian
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| Russian source | Dec 28, 2010 |
I seem to found the source in Russian. Alexander Nikolayevich Afanasyev, a Russian folklorist who recorded and published over 600 Russian folktales and fairytales (see below my rather bad translation into English of http://hobbitaniya.ru/afanasyev/afanasyev101.php):
Once upon a time there lived Bukhtan Bukhtanovich who got to lie on a brick stove (used in Russia in the pas... See more I seem to found the source in Russian. Alexander Nikolayevich Afanasyev, a Russian folklorist who recorded and published over 600 Russian folktales and fairytales (see below my rather bad translation into English of http://hobbitaniya.ru/afanasyev/afanasyev101.php):
Once upon a time there lived Bukhtan Bukhtanovich who got to lie on a brick stove (used in Russia in the past and somewhere in backcountry at present both for home heating and cooking) in the middle of the field (it is all about a fairytale stove with no home walls and roof) up to his elbows in cockroach milk. A fox came by to him to ask if he would like to marry a princess…
Therefore, it is just a hyperbole to describe where a lazy man got to live in, taking everything easy. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marina Aleyeva
Israel
Local time: 05:55
Member (2006)
English to Russian
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Looks like I was wrong about poverty. I have found two more occurrences of the phrase. Both mention lying on a stove in cockroach milk, and the first one also has the "half-elbow" bit. So it seems that your initial idea about lying lazy was right. The entire phrase may originate in the Vologda subdialect.
Ему теперь положено на печи в тараканьем молоке по полулокоть лежать и ждать, когда свинья на белк�... See more Looks like I was wrong about poverty. I have found two more occurrences of the phrase. Both mention lying on a stove in cockroach milk, and the first one also has the "half-elbow" bit. So it seems that your initial idea about lying lazy was right. The entire phrase may originate in the Vologda subdialect.
Ему теперь положено на печи в тараканьем молоке по полулокоть лежать и ждать, когда свинья на белку начнет лаять...
http://read.newlibrary.ru/read/osetrov/page21/gibel_volhva.html
Илюша Муромец, на печи в тараканьем молоке тридцать лет и три года лежит-лежит
http://www.proza.ru/2002/09/03-47
[Edited at 2010-12-29 14:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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And can you tell me something about coackroaches? Are they normally considered lucky animals? I have read on a site that traditionaly when Russian people changed home they bought their tarakans with them!
Substitute cricket for cockroach and the story will contain no errors.
Otherwise cockroach is a lucky animal in Russia to the same extent as rats in America.
| | | | Elisa Comito
Local time: 04:55
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER | coackroach milk: food for thought | Dec 29, 2010 |
Thank you, you have been all precious! All this matter of coackroaches and coakroach milk is very interesting... so it seems that the author found an old folkloristic source and she liked and "revived" it in her book. I regret not understanding Russian and not being able to make in-depht researches myself.
The author is passionated about Russia and said she found the material for her book not only through researches but also recalling to her mind all the conversations and discussions she h... See more Thank you, you have been all precious! All this matter of coackroaches and coakroach milk is very interesting... so it seems that the author found an old folkloristic source and she liked and "revived" it in her book. I regret not understanding Russian and not being able to make in-depht researches myself.
The author is passionated about Russia and said she found the material for her book not only through researches but also recalling to her mind all the conversations and discussions she heard from Russian immigrants as a child in the US (she lived in a place where there were many immigrants form different parts of Russia) . So it's difficult to trace exactly the derivation and original signification of some elements. ▲ Collapse
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Elisa Comito
Local time: 04:55
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER
Cherepanov wrote: I seem to found the source in Russian. Alexander Nikolayevich Afanasyev, a Russian folklorist who recorded and published over 600 Russian folktales and fairytales (see below my rather bad translation into English of http://hobbitaniya.ru/afanasyev/afanasyev101.php): Once upon a time there lived Bukhtan Bukhtanovich who got to lie on a brick stove (used in Russia in the past and somewhere in backcountry at present both for home heating and cooking) in the middle of the field (it is all about a fairytale stove with no home walls and roof) up to his elbows in cockroach milk. A fox came by to him to ask if he would like to marry a princess…
Thanks for your translation and explenations!
| | | | Elisa Comito
Local time: 04:55
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER | lucky insects | Dec 29, 2010 |
Sergei Tumanov wrote:
And can you tell me something about coackroaches? Are they normally considered lucky animals? I have read on a site that traditionaly when Russian people changed home they bought their tarakans with them!
Substitute cricket for cockroach and the story will contain no errors.
Otherwise cockroach is a lucky animal in Russia to the same extent as rats in America.
Look at what Elena said though.
And look at the following information. It is in Portoguese but I see you know Spanish so I hope that, being both neolatin languages, you can understand its sense (knowing Italian I can).
http://www.jangadabrasil.com.br/temas/marco2009/te12203a.asp
"Mesmo quando causam aborrecimento em casa, as baratas não são exterminadas,
mas apenas "afugentadas". ***É interessante notar que o mesmo respeito existia
na Rússia (Rolland, 1881, p.286) – a presença de um tarakan (barata)
preto em casa era presságio de felicidade; quando um russo mudava de casa,
carregava para seu novo domicílio todos os *tarakans* pretos; se as baratas
abandonavam a casa era sinal de desgraça.*** Na França, no Departamento de
Gard, ainda segundo Rolland, matar um *panatario* (barata), dava azar. Na
Inglaterra, ao se pisar numa barata, ouvia-se um trovão; por esta razão eram
as baratas conhecidas em Lancashire por *thunder-c1ocks* (relógios-trovão).
(Lenko, Karol; Papavero, Nelson. *Insetos no folclore*. São Paulo, Conselho
Estadual de Artes e Ciências Humanas, 1979 (Coleção Folclore, 18), p.47-49)
P.S. It's interesting what you say about crickets. I am afraid Italians don't understand insects very much. The only one we consider lucky is the ladybird. Crickets however are loved because they are associated with summer.
[Modificato alle 2010-12-29 09:52 GMT]
| | | | Elisa Comito
Local time: 04:55
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER
Marina Aleyeva wrote: Looks like I was wrong about poverty. I have found two more occurrences of the phrase. Both mention laying on a stove in cockroach milk, and the first one also has the "half-elbow" bit. So it seems that your initial idea about laying lazy was right. The entire phrase may originate in the Vologda subdialect. Ему теперь положено на печи в тараканьем молоке по полулокоть лежать и ждать, когда свинья на белку начнет лаять... http://read.newlibrary.ru/read/osetrov/page21/gibel_volhva.html Илюша Муромец, на печи в тараканьем молоке тридцать лет и три года лежит-лежит http://www.proza.ru/2002/09/03-47 [Edited at 2010-12-28 19:54 GMT]
Thank you Marina,
are these occurrences in folktales? Two different folktales? Are they (or is one of them) identifiable with the one collected by Alexander Nikolayevich Afanasyev and reported by Cherepanov?
http://hobbitaniya.ru/afanasyev/afanasyev101.php)
| | | | | I am sorry but | Dec 29, 2010 |
when I read «тараканье молоко» in the given context the first thing that comes to mind - the hero of the folk tale is so lazy that he lies in "cockroach faeces". 33 years is enough to create a thick layer of dust and dirt and... 'milk'.
[Edited at 2010-12-29 12:38 GMT]
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Elisa Comito
Local time: 04:55
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER
Sergei Tumanov wrote:
when I read «тараканье молоко» in the given context the first thing that comes to mind - the hero of the folk tale is so lazy that he lies in "cockroach faeces". 33 years is enough to create a thick layer of dust and dirt and... 'milk'.
[Edited at 2010-12-29 12:38 GMT]
So you think that in the original folkstale "milk" might be an euphemism for "faeces"? And in the 2 links given by Marina
(Ему теперь положено на печи в тараканьем молоке по полулокоть лежать и ждать, когда свинья на белку начнет лаять...
http://read.newlibrary.ru/read/osetrov/page21/gibel_volhva.html
Илюша Муромец, на печи в тараканьем молоке тридцать лет и три года лежит-лежит
http://www.proza.ru/2002/09/03-47 )
you get the same impression?
But why should the ancient narrators use this euphemism? Normally they didn't refrain from crude things.
I ask this just for my interest as, in any case, in the novel I am translating I will keep "milk" since the author uses it to describe an idyllic time ( "One day,
in the good times when matzoh still fell from the sky and men lay about up their elbows in cockroach milk...)
Ciao
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In fact, both occurences given by Marina do not come from ancient tales directly. They come from books of modern 20-21 century authors, and those are fiction books.
Talking about impressions, indeed, it seems that the hero would be more likely to end up lying in faeces rather than milk after lying for such a long time.
On the other hand, it comes to my mind that folk tales that mention ancient times (ancient even for the narrator of the folk tale) sometimes say that th... See more In fact, both occurences given by Marina do not come from ancient tales directly. They come from books of modern 20-21 century authors, and those are fiction books.
Talking about impressions, indeed, it seems that the hero would be more likely to end up lying in faeces rather than milk after lying for such a long time.
On the other hand, it comes to my mind that folk tales that mention ancient times (ancient even for the narrator of the folk tale) sometimes say that these times were so paradise-like or strange that many things were the other way round. (like birds swimming and fishes singing, etc). I think you can find examples of this in folk tales of various countries. So this hero could be the case.. instead of ending up lying in faeces, he ends up in milk. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marina Aleyeva
Israel
Local time: 05:55
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
Elisa Comito wrote: are these occurrences in folktales? Two different folktales? Are they (or is one of them) identifiable with the one collected by Alexander Nikolayevich Afanasyev and reported by Cherepanov? http://hobbitaniya.ru/afanasyev/afanasyev101.php)
The first one is a historical novel by Gennadiy Osetrov. The second one is a stylised tale by Margarita Sharapova. Both are modern authors.
[Edited at 2010-12-29 15:03 GMT]
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