afdeling

21:51 Dec 6, 2015 

Please post it. I love the simplicity of this solution. Yes, quite commonly used in this context. I will take your other suggestion too, about leaving the Dutch term in brackets (if it's not too much) My text is an inspection report, and this reference to the bouwbesluit appears only once, and I suppose it's crucial.
Thanks!

21:49 Dec 6, 2015 

FWIW, it also looks perfectly fine to me. The overall quality delivered by the translator of this report seems OK to me too, but I'm obviously not a native speaker.

21:49 Dec 6, 2015 

And I did ask this since you gave us this translation example.

Now, did the translator a good job in this particular respect?

21:43 Dec 6, 2015 

I am sure it will be valuable material and possibly Katerina can make good use of it but I have no time available to study it.

I was just interested in your personal feeling about how 'part' fits if you look at the content of:

http://vrom.bouwbesluit.com/Inhoud/docs/wet/bb2012/hfd2/afd2...

I think 'part' fits well (I leave aside what conventions require), I just look at how 'part' fits in this particular context.

What about you? :-)

21:26 Dec 6, 2015 

Using Chapter > Part (or Chapter > Part > Division etc.) as the main division (i.e. at the 1st level) would definitely not be uncommon, see f.i. http://www.pcc.gov.au/uniform/Uniform-drafting-protocol-4th-... or https://www.comlaw.gov.au/content/structure.

That being said, grouping various sections together to form a Part which in turn may be divided into various chapters is also not uncommon, see f.i. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation_of_United_Kingdom_leg...

18:42 Dec 6, 2015 

if you look at this:

http://vrom.bouwbesluit.com/Inhoud/docs/wet/bb2012/hfd2/afd2...

18:32 Dec 6, 2015 

This is in fact all I was able to find. FWIW, it's from the following official report:

8th National Report on the implementation of the European Social Charter
submitted by
THE GOVERNMENT OF THE NETHERLANDS

As regards 'part', my opinion is simply that this would be an option to consider. I don't consider myself enough of a legal expert to say anything more conclusive about it.

18:21 Dec 6, 2015 

You found an existing translation of the titles.

Safe option perhaps.

"artikel" has been translated as "article".

All that remains is 'paragraaf' but we may just as well use the symbol. :-)

May I ask, what's your opinion of 'part'?

18:04 Dec 6, 2015 

Afdeling > Part would be another option. See pp. 69 ff. of the following official report by the Dutch government: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/socialcharter/reporting...

17:42 Dec 6, 2015 

Ik moet mijn tijd beter besteden.

De vraag blijft wat zouden we doen met hoofdstuk, afdeling, paragraaf, artikel hadden we een Angelsaksisch bouwbesluit met dezelfde opbouw en achterliggende logica als specifiek dit Bouwbesluit 2012 van het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden.

Dat lijkt me de juiste benadering.

Ik kan er geen antwoord op geven.

17:32 Dec 6, 2015 

I think it would make more sense to include the original NL terms - at least at first mention - rather than to look for a commonly used legal structure for Anglo-Saxon building decrees, if such a structure exists at all.

17:26 Dec 6, 2015 

Dan zou je hier kunnen beginnen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_code Maar ik ga nu een punt aanmaken (dat is het allerlaatste element in een document, ha ha).

17:16 Dec 6, 2015 

See also http://dare.uva.nl/record/1/393055: (...) if a law follows the official guidelines, then a chapter is at a lower level than a division, so the start of a division will mark the end of a chapter (but the start of a chapter does not mark the end of a division). However, some laws deviate from these guidelines (...).

17:08 Dec 6, 2015 

Just an example.
The point is we would need to know what the Anglo-Saxon conventions are as regards bouwbesluiten while assuming a structure identical to a Dutch bouwbesluit.

I don't know these conventions.
We even don't know whether the term 'article' needs to occur in these documents at all.

I would first need to know this:

I would need to have clarity about the structure and the logic of the structure of the Dutch bouwbesluit, then we assume there is an equivalent structure in the area of law/bouwbesluiten in the Anglo-Saxon world and ask which terms would apply for hoofdstuk, afdeling, paragraaf, artikel?

16:58 Dec 6, 2015 

We are not talking about the United States Code. We are talking about the structure of building codes, yes? But if there are sections and articles, articles are the larger part, meaning it contains sections.

16:53 Dec 6, 2015 

In the US code there is no article to be found whatsoever:

Title Subtitle Chapter Subchapter Part Subpart Section Subsection Paragraph Subparagraph Clause Subclause Item Subitem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Code

So what are we talking about?

16:41 Dec 6, 2015 

I don't think this is a reply to what I said.

Firstly, we would need to have clarity about the structure and the logic of the structure of the Dutch bouwbesluit, then we assume there is an equivalent structure in the area of law/bouwbesluiten in the Anglo-Saxon world and ask which terms would apply?

Secondly, the criteria of one part being larger than another part, does not seem to make sense.
It is not so much about the magnitude of a part as its place within the structure.

16:33 Dec 6, 2015 

Unfortunately, in the VS they would do it the way I suggested in my answer. They truly think differently about an article and a section in the sense that an article is always larger than a section, period. So the only way around that is to indicate that you are translating a Dutch code and then to outline the structure with whatever terminology you deem best.

16:15 Dec 6, 2015 

Perhaps we would need to go about it like this:

Suppose the Anglo-Saxon bouwbesluit was identical in structure and logic of structure to the Dutch bouwbesluit, then how would I translate hoofdstuk, afdeling, paragraaf, artikel?

15:53 Dec 6, 2015 

I was hoping for a tradition :-(

Independent logical thinking is most conducive to best practices, except when it leads to a mix-up in references.

Thanks everybody! I think I got it.

15:40 Dec 6, 2015 

I wonder whether localizing is possible when there is no equivalence in structure and logic of the structure.

I would suggest to do something logical (taking into account the logic of the bouwbesluit's structure) in all cases, while appreciating what is a good rendering of this logic from the point of view of translation.

15:28 Dec 6, 2015 

I think you have to decide whether you are translating (reflecting the Dutch structure) or localizing, based on the purpose of the translation. Either way, it is a matter of agreement and clarifying this in the outline. I don't think this can violate any law, because codes would have to be entirely redrafted and accepted.

15:09 Dec 6, 2015 

"Decree doesn't follow the format of any other system or country"

Exactly.
Things would be simple if the foreign country's 'bouwbesluit' was structured identically to the Dutch 'bouwbesluit'.

Most likely it isn't.

Which means you will need to look at the structure and logic of the structure of the Dutch 'bouwbesluit' and then see what fits.

What about this ?:

Hoofdstuk - Chapter 2
Afdeling - Section 2.5
Paragraaf - Subsection 2.5.2
Artikel - Paragraph 2.38

No idea whether this violates the law. :-)

11:13 Dec 6, 2015 

As has been hinted at in the sample output shown so far, the Codes documents are highly structured documents following a deep hierarchical model: division/part/section/subsection/article/sentence/clause/subclause in the normative portions of the Codes and a different model for non-normative appendices.

'nuff said.

10:07 Dec 6, 2015 

Thanks everybody!
I would have gone for Lianne's logic, which is why I posted the question in the first place; I would have considered Lianne's answer as support for my own opinion. Still. last night I went on further with some research and this is what I found: https://books.google.nl/books?id=Nn6IeBOQuPoC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA...
Your opinions? Look for titles of Divisions/Paragraphs/Sections, but you also have to read the paragraph appearing before that list, where it says that the "Decree doesn't follow the format of any other system or country"

22:19 Dec 5, 2015 

22:11 Dec 5, 2015 

Aan de rechterkant van de pagina zie je heel duidelijke de hiërarchie.

Hoofdstuk
Afdeling
Paragraaf
Artikel

Katerina heeft overigens zelf ook een koppeling van het bouwbesluit in de context vermeld.
Die is iets minder duidelijk maar het is daar ook eenvoudig te zien.

22:05 Dec 5, 2015 

Het gaat toch om een vertaling naar het Engels? Daar wordt het andersom gebruikt.

22:02 Dec 5, 2015 

Bouwbesluit 2012 ›
Hoofdstuk 2. Technische bouwvoorschriften uit het oogpunt van veiligheid ›
Afdeling 2.5. Trap
§ 2.5.1. Nieuwbouw
Artikel 2.32. Aansturingsartikel

Hoofdstuk
Afdeling
Artikel

§ = paragraafteken = paragraafsymbool =
section (mark) (§)

[PS: @Barend: my post crossed with yours]

22:02 Dec 5, 2015 

Het lijkt me een goed idee om naar het bouwbesluit zelf te kijken.

Hoofdstuk 2
Afdeling 2. 5 Trap
Paragraaf 2.5.2 Bestaande bouw
Artikel 2.39 Afmeting trap

http://vrom.bouwbesluit.com/Inhoud/docs/wet/bb2012/hfd2/afd2...

21:51 Dec 5, 2015 

I think that I am quite clearly showing with references that the common order is article - section in English and afdeling - artikel in Dutch. You can open up many references on building codes, and you'll see that a section is the smaller unit, typically used for a paragraph. Articles contain a grouping of sections.

21:39 Dec 5, 2015 

that this isn’t going to be solved conclusively ;-)