tot wie of het lichaam tot welk

English translation: respectively the natural person or [public] body with which one or more

16:33 Aug 17, 2018
Dutch to English translations [Non-PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general) / Labour legislation
Dutch term or phrase: tot wie of het lichaam tot welk
Hello,
The general meaning of the sentence is clear, but what does the phrase "tot wie of het lichaam tot welk" mean in this context?

Op grond van artikel 9 ZW (en de overeenkomstige bepalingen van artikel 9 en artikel 8 WAO) wordt als werkgever aangemerkt de overheidswerkgever onderscheidenlijk de natuurlijke persoon tot wie of het lichaam tot welk een of meer natuurlijke personen in dienstbetrekking staan
Yevgeni Gerasimenko
Ukraine
Local time: 07:08
English translation:respectively the natural person or [public] body with which one or more
Explanation:
'Respectively the natural person or [public] body with which one or more natural persons hold an employment relationship.' 'Lichaam' means 'body' or 'institute' in this case.
Selected response from:

Roel Blomsma
Mexico
Local time: 00:08
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5[the natural person] to whom or the entity to which
John Holloway
4 +1or, as the case may be, any natural person or body/entity employing etc.
Kitty Brussaard
4respectively the natural person or [public] body with which one or more
Roel Blomsma
4an individual or corporation...
philgoddard
Summary of reference entries provided
Barend van Zadelhoff
"lichaam" within the meaning of the Ziektewet
Kitty Brussaard

Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
onderscheidenlijk de natuurlijke persoon tot wie of het lichaam tot welk een of meer
respectively the natural person or [public] body with which one or more


Explanation:
'Respectively the natural person or [public] body with which one or more natural persons hold an employment relationship.' 'Lichaam' means 'body' or 'institute' in this case.


    https://www.vandale.nl/gratis-woordenboek/nederlands/betekenis/lichaam#.W3cGHuj0nIU
Roel Blomsma
Mexico
Local time: 00:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in DutchDutch

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Kitty Brussaard: I'm afraid I don't agree with your suggestion that "lichaam" refers exclusively/specifically to public bodies here. This would mean that private entities (or private bodies if you wish) are not considered 'employers' for the purposes of this legislation.
1 hr
  -> Well, I did place [public] in square brackets, indicating that it probably refered to a public body, also because the contexts mentions 'overheidswerkgever'. And in the explanation I indicated that in general 'lichaam' refers to 'body' or 'institute'....

neutral  philgoddard: I think this is on the right lines (minus the "public"), but it's a bit literal and hard to understand. I don't think "respectively" adds anything, either.
2 hrs
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
an individual or corporation...


Explanation:
...employing one or more individuals.

This can be expressed much more simply in English. I'm not a big fan of the legalese "natural person" when you can simply say "individual", and "lichaam" means body or corporation.

philgoddard
United States
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 48

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Kitty Brussaard: The term 'lichaam' has a wider meaning in this specific context. See my reference comment. As to your other point, the source follows the terminology used in the relevant act so I think it's wisest to follow suit in the translation.
15 hrs
  -> Your answer is the same as mine except you've translated "onderscheidenlijk", which wasn't in the question. Corporation means the same as body.
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1 day 5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
[the natural person] to whom or the entity to which


Explanation:
- "whom", objective form of the pronoun "who" - relative to the "natural person";
- "which", pronoun - relative to the "entity". See URLs, below. First URL is the reference for "which', second is for "whom".
- An aside on meaning: See URL, below: "Word Origin and History for which, pron., ... Old Frisian hwelik, Middle Dutch wilk, Dutch welk, ..."


    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/which?s=t
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/whom
John Holloway
Netherlands
Local time: 06:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 23
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18 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
onderscheidenlijk de natuurlijke persoon tot wie of het lichaam tot welk ... in dienstbetrekking etc
or, as the case may be, any natural person or body/entity employing etc.


Explanation:
Pursuant to Article 9 of the Sickness Benefits Act (and the corresponding provisions in Article 9 and Article 8 of the Invalidity Insurance Act), "employer" means any public employer or, as the case may be, any natural person or body employing one or more natural persons.

See my D-box entry and reference comment.

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Note added at 1 day 18 hrs (2018-08-19 10:50:48 GMT)
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PS. As the term itself already makes clear, an "overheidswerkgever" is obviously an employer and, more specifically, one which employs civil servants (NL ambtenaren) on the basis of appointment (NL aanstelling). In the Netherlands, civil servants do not have employment contracts, although this will change by 2020 due to new legislation. See f.i. https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/overheidspersoneel/... and https://www.government.nl/topics/public-administration/new-l...
By contrast, "de natuurlijke persoon tot wie of het lichaam tot welk een of meer natuurlijke personen in dienstbetrekking staan" refers to any natural person or body/entity (public or private, see my ref) employing one or more natural persons on the basis of an employment contract (NL arbeidsovereenkomst).

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Note added at 8 days (2018-08-26 09:12:24 GMT)
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Further to Phil's reply to my peer comment, in this specific context, "lichamen" covers both bodies corporate (corporations) and unincorporated bodies.

Kitty Brussaard
Netherlands
Local time: 06:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in DutchDutch
PRO pts in category: 152

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tina Vonhof (X)
11 hrs
  -> Hartelijk dank, Tina!
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Reference comments


17 mins
Reference

Reference information:
dienstbetrekking:= de arbeidsverhouding van de persoon die persoonlijk arbeid verricht ten behoeve van een derde door tussenkomst van de natuurlijke persoon tot wie of van het lichaam tot welk de arbeidsverhouding bestaat


Zonodig in afwijking van de artikelen 3, 4 en 5, onderdeel a, b en c, van de Wet op de arbeidsongeschiktheidsverzekering, de Ziektewet en de Werkloosheidswet wordt als dienstbetrekking beschouwd de arbeidsverhouding van de persoon die persoonlijk arbeid verricht ten behoeve van een derde door tussenkomst van de natuurlijke persoon tot wie of van het lichaam tot welk de arbeidsverhouding bestaat.

http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0004090/2017-07-01

Barend van Zadelhoff
Netherlands
Native speaker of: Native in DutchDutch
PRO pts in category: 19
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17 hrs
Reference: "lichaam" within the meaning of the Ziektewet

Reference information:
Ziektewet

Eerste afdeling. Algemene bepalingen

§ 1. Algemeen
Artikel 1
1 Voor de toepassing van deze wet en van de tot haar uitvoering genomen besluiten wordt verstaan onder:
(...)
c. lichamen: rechtspersonen, maat- en vennootschappen, samenwerkingsvormen zonder rechtspersoonlijkheid die met verenigingen maatschappelijk gelijk kunnen worden gesteld, ondernemingen van publiekrechtelijke rechtspersonen en doelvermogens;
http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0001888/2018-07-01

In other words, for the purposes of the Sickness Benefits Act, "lichamen" means: legal entities, companies, partnerships, unincorporated partnerships regarded as equivalent to foundations, public enterprises, and enterprises owned by special purpose vehicles.

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Note added at 19 hrs (2018-08-18 11:36:12 GMT)
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Toepassing van entiteitsbegrip
(...)
- recht: een fictieve entiteit met of zonder rechtspersoonlijkheid, in tegenstelling tot een natuurlijk persoon (zie ook onder).

Lichaam
De term lichaam wordt soms in wetten gebruikt voor een entiteit die niet een natuurlijk persoon is, en al of niet rechtspersoonlijkheid kan hebben. De Algemene wet inzake rijksbelastingen bijvoorbeeld verstaat onder lichamen: verenigingen en andere rechtspersonen, maatschappen, vennootschappen, ondernemingen van publiekrechtelijke rechtspersonen en doelvermogens.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entiteit

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Note added at 8 days (2018-08-26 08:55:32 GMT)
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PS. "foundations" in my first comment above should read "associations" (NL verenigingen), i.e. "unincorporated partnerships regarded as equivalent/similar to associations"

Kitty Brussaard
Netherlands
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in DutchDutch
PRO pts in category: 152
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