verschijnen en verdwijnen

English translation: Additional comments

16:18 Feb 1, 2007
Dutch to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Music / expression
Dutch term or phrase: verschijnen en verdwijnen
I am translating an English text into French. The English text was originally translated by my client from a Dutch text. I think there is a pun he didn't manage to translate into English, therefore I would like an explanation on the Dutch original so that I can attempt to translate it into French (sorry if you lost me!)...
Here's the Dutch text and the English translation provided :

"Hier neemt de componist een loopje met het één en ander waardoor aan de titel “Op de fles” een tweede betekenis kan verleend worden. Hoe dan ook is **verschijnen en verdwijnen** volop aan de orde."

"Here the composer has some fun with the secondary meaning of the title, "to go broke". It is a question of appearing and disappearing."

To me, the last sentence in English doesn't really make sense...
Thanks for any help
alili (X)
France
Local time: 19:42
English translation:Additional comments
Explanation:
I'm guessing that the composer here is Frans Geysen, who wrote "Op de fles" for recorder (http://www.cebedem.be/composers/geysen_frans/en.html)?

If this is the case then the pun arises through the fact that the piece of music has been / can be played on "tuned bottles" (i.e. "op de fles" / "on a bottle", e.g. http://www.flanders-recorder-quartet.be/multi050302.pdf (notably by a group called "Vier op 'n rij" - or lit. four in a row, four lined up, aka, the Flanders' Recorder Ensemble), as well as referring to "bankruptcy". (There are is also the literal translation of in/on the bottle).

The trick is conveying this double meaning in English, because as has already been said - to "go broke" / "bankrupt", etc. has no meaning other than just that, i.e. you've lost your business, money, etc., etc.

Perhaps the closest approximation is "hit the bottle" - in the sense of I'm going to drink a lot (!) or literally strike the object. It doesn't cover the Dutch sense of bankruptcy precisely, although impending bankruptcy might very well lead you to hit the bottle!

It's also interesting to look at the origins of "op de fles" (http://www.onzetaal.nl/advies/fles.php), in particular the potentially different Dutch/Flemish derivations (Geysen was educated in Belgium). The former referring to the dreg ends of a barrel of ale, the latter to the bottle used to nurse the dying (a sense of "here today, gone tomorrow", perhaps?)

My suggestion would be: "Op de fles" - "Hit the bottle" .... "a case of here today, gone tomorrow.."
Selected response from:

Adam Smith
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:42
Grading comment
Thanks to everybody for all your explanations. Indeed, the sentence appears in the CD leaflet of an album by the Flanders Recorder Ensemble and is about the piece "Op the fles" played on bottles of wine and beer (!)... I should indeed "come up with a very suave French rendering" thanks to all those informations!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +3Additional comments
Adam Smith
4Explanation
vixen
3 +1easy come, easy go
Siobhan Schoonhoff-Reilly
3comment
Ken Cox
3go to pot
Els Spin


  

Answers


11 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Explanation


Explanation:
The Dutch expression 'op de fles gaan' means 'to go bankrupt'. This means that the company seizes to exist, hence disappears.

vixen
Greece
Local time: 20:42
Native speaker of: Dutch
PRO pts in category: 8
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
comment


Explanation:
I must admit that I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here due to not knowing the 'other' meaning of 'op de fles'. However, the translator can certainly be faulted for translating the first sentence 'straight', since there is little reason to expect that the English expression 'to go broke' has a double meaning that corresponds to the double meaning of 'op de fles'.

In any case, a more faithful translation (other wordings are naturally possible) would be:

Here the composer starts playing around with a few things, which allows the title 'Op de fles' to be understood in a different sense. Be that as it may, there is lively sequence of comings and goings.'

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2007-02-01 18:10:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I should have said 'for translating the title 'straight', since the translation of the sentence is a bit of an interpretation IMO.

Ken Cox
Local time: 19:42
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
easy come, easy go


Explanation:
Indeed 'op het fles' mans "to go bankrupt" and "to go for broke" = to risk everything to achieve something. A bit of a carefree attitude, hence easy come, easy go.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2007-02-01 19:17:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

correction: 'mans' should read 'means'.

Siobhan Schoonhoff-Reilly
Netherlands
Local time: 19:42
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tina Vonhof (X): I like this in relation to musical themes.
2 hrs
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
Additional comments


Explanation:
I'm guessing that the composer here is Frans Geysen, who wrote "Op de fles" for recorder (http://www.cebedem.be/composers/geysen_frans/en.html)?

If this is the case then the pun arises through the fact that the piece of music has been / can be played on "tuned bottles" (i.e. "op de fles" / "on a bottle", e.g. http://www.flanders-recorder-quartet.be/multi050302.pdf (notably by a group called "Vier op 'n rij" - or lit. four in a row, four lined up, aka, the Flanders' Recorder Ensemble), as well as referring to "bankruptcy". (There are is also the literal translation of in/on the bottle).

The trick is conveying this double meaning in English, because as has already been said - to "go broke" / "bankrupt", etc. has no meaning other than just that, i.e. you've lost your business, money, etc., etc.

Perhaps the closest approximation is "hit the bottle" - in the sense of I'm going to drink a lot (!) or literally strike the object. It doesn't cover the Dutch sense of bankruptcy precisely, although impending bankruptcy might very well lead you to hit the bottle!

It's also interesting to look at the origins of "op de fles" (http://www.onzetaal.nl/advies/fles.php), in particular the potentially different Dutch/Flemish derivations (Geysen was educated in Belgium). The former referring to the dreg ends of a barrel of ale, the latter to the bottle used to nurse the dying (a sense of "here today, gone tomorrow", perhaps?)

My suggestion would be: "Op de fles" - "Hit the bottle" .... "a case of here today, gone tomorrow.."


Adam Smith
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:42
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 7
Grading comment
Thanks to everybody for all your explanations. Indeed, the sentence appears in the CD leaflet of an album by the Flanders Recorder Ensemble and is about the piece "Op the fles" played on bottles of wine and beer (!)... I should indeed "come up with a very suave French rendering" thanks to all those informations!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  vic voskuil: perfect answer, especially because there is enough ifo here to come up with a very suave French rendering :)
1 hr
  -> Indeed - thank you! :-)

agree  vixen
10 hrs

agree  Ken Cox: chapeau!
10 hrs
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7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
go to pot


Explanation:
I admit, a pot isn't a bottle exactly, but 'go to pot' also means 'to go bankrupt' and might be more appropriate. But perhaps we are all looking in the wrong direction and you'd better think of an appropriate saying in French rather than seeking an English one that still might not be easy to translate.

Thanks Adam, by the way, for explaining the first meaning of 'op de fles' here.

Els Spin
Netherlands
Local time: 19:42
Native speaker of: Dutch
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