minimum plumb

German translation: Breiten/Messungen sind die Minima, die gelten würden, wenn der Schacht wirklich genau senkrecht wäre

22:38 Aug 14, 2019
English to German translations [PRO]
Tech/Engineering - Construction / Civil Engineering / elevators
English term or phrase: minimum plumb
Thema: Planungsdaten aus einer Broschüre zu einem Aufzugsmodell

Kontext: Shaft dimensions shown at minimum plumb, building tolerances should be added

Was ist unter "shown at minimum plumb" zu verstehen und gibt es dafür einen im Deutschen gebräuchlichen Ausdruck?
Thomas Blicker
Local time: 09:50
German translation:Breiten/Messungen sind die Minima, die gelten würden, wenn der Schacht wirklich genau senkrecht wäre
Explanation:
National Structural Concrete Specification for Building Construction; 4th edition, complying with BS EN 13670:2009
"Lift shafts require a minimum plumb dimension and a positive only tolerance".
https://engineeringsurveyor.com/software/NSCS-Edition-4.pdf
Unable to copy & paste from this, but see §10, "Geometric Tolerances", and especially §10.2.1 on "Inclination".
By my reading this is about deviation of the shaft from perfectly vertical. Hence the reference to a plumb, as in plumb line.
Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumb_bob

The lift will presumably want to hang vertically. If the shaft has the necessary width to accommodate the lift but has been built on a slight angle, then the lift may knock into the walls of the shaft — especially in a tall building with a long shaft, where small angular deviations would accumulate into large horizontal 'errors'.

As it is only possible for the shaft to be less vertical than the plumb line — it cannot be more vertical than the plumb line — only a positive tolerance should be specified (to be added onto the minimum [breadth] dimension).

Constructing the shaft wider than this minimum value will allow it to accommodate a lift safely even if there are some deviations from true vertical.
The allowance to be made (the magnitude of the tolerance) may vary from one building to another.

I do not claim the above phrasing to be perfectly idiomatic German, but I think here the main issue is understanding the meaning.

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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:48:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

By the way, "inclination" in the cited text refers to the 'angle' or 'lean' or 'slope'.
http://www.mathwords.com/a/angle_inclination.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:56:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Builder's work — lift well:
· Calculations with regard to the architect's plans and structural loadings.
· Form a plumb lift well and pit according to the architect's drawings and to tolerances acceptable to the lift manufacturer (known as Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)."
https://epdf.pub/queue/building-services-handbook.html

"Form a plumb lift well and pit" is indicating a vertical construction. Although you'd think that'd 'go without saying' ....
"Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)." I believe "ideal" or "bare" (as in "bare minimum") would be better words than "basic" here [I am ignoring "Nominal"].

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:07:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

BTW, very tall buildings ('skyscrapers') sway with the wind: even if they could be built to be perfectly vertical in the absence of wind, they would deviate from vertical in the presence of wind.

"A 40-storey building may sway a foot to the left, a foot to the right. [....] A 100-storey building, by comparison, may move on the order of two-and-a-half to three feet to each side, [...]."
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/06/how-much-do-skyscrapers-a...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:20:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think this interpretation is compatible with the "lichte Abmessungen" description uncovered by Rolf Keller, except that "minimum plumb" seems to explicitly also convey the key assumption behind determination of the minimum.

licht: .../"[...]; spärlich"/"(von Öffnungen o. Ä.) von der einen zur anderen inneren Begrenzungsfläche gemessen"
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/licht
Selected response from:

D. I. Verrelli
Australia
Local time: 19:50
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +3Breiten/Messungen sind die Minima, die gelten würden, wenn der Schacht wirklich genau senkrecht wäre
D. I. Verrelli
5 -2minimum plump
Christian Arnold
4 -2minimum plump
Christian Arnold
2Tiefe, Schachttiefe: wobei die Kabine ganz unten ist
Barbara Schmidt, M.A. (X)


Discussion entries: 9





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -2
minimum plump


Explanation:
minimal plump = minimale Füllhöhe

shown at minimum plump is difficult to translate correct in german, without the complete sentence.

Christian Arnold
Germany
Local time: 09:50
Native speaker of: German

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  D. I. Verrelli: "plump" ≠ "plumb". If you accidentally submitted this Answer, I suggest that you can 'hide' it.
15 hrs

disagree  Schtroumpf: Kontext Aufzugtechnik: Was soll das wohl sein??
3 days 11 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -2
minimum plump


Explanation:
sry for my first translation

i think shaft dimensioms shown at minimum plump

is perfect translated to

Wellenabmessungen sind mit minimalem Übermaß angegeben.

sorry for my first answer

Christian Arnold
Germany
Local time: 09:50
Native speaker of: German

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Rolf Keller: Da "building tolerances added" völlig sinnlos wäre, wenn es um eine Welle ginge, ist das völlig falsch. Und ginge es um eine Welle, wäre die deutsche Formulierung dennoch falsch. shaft = Aufzugsschacht!
5 hrs

disagree  D. I. Verrelli: I agree with Rolf Keller. Furthermore, this may be interference from the erroneous reading of "plumb" as "plump" (hence the idea of "plump" ~ "Übermaß").
15 hrs

disagree  Schtroumpf: Es ist nicht sehr hilfreich, völlig an den Haaren herbeigezogene "Lösungen" mit höchstem Sicherheitsgrad (CL5) einzustellen. Vielleicht etwas selbstkritischer an das Beantworten von Fragen herangehen?
3 days 11 hrs
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11 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
Tiefe, Schachttiefe: wobei die Kabine ganz unten ist


Explanation:
Bin nicht ganz sicher, aber ich glaube, es ist die

Tiefe der Schachtgrube bei ganz heruntergefahrener Kabine.
https://www.aroundhome.de/personenaufzug/masse/

plumb muss ja sowie ein Senkrechtmaß sein

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Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:04:22 GMT)
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Vielleicht hilft das hier auch:
https://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/two-post-lifts/leveling/

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:05:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Also "Mindest-Schachttiefe bei heruntergefahrener Kabine"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 Stunden (2019-08-15 10:06:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Nein - Schachttiefe bei heruntergefahrener Kabine

Barbara Schmidt, M.A. (X)
Germany
Local time: 09:50
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: German
PRO pts in category: 58

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Rolf Keller: Der Schacht ist immer gleich groß, egal, wo sich die Kabine gerade befindet.
48 mins

neutral  D. I. Verrelli: I had this thought at first too (inspired by the expression "to plumb the depths" https://www.grammar-monster.com/sayings_proverbs/plumb_the_d... ). But in the present context it seems to be related more to the width, rather than the depth.
5 hrs
  -> Thanks, yes, quite likely! I'm curious to see what Thomas is coming up with after consulting with the client. We should add his (or V's) answer to the glossary.
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17 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
Breiten/Messungen sind die Minima, die gelten würden, wenn der Schacht wirklich genau senkrecht wäre


Explanation:
National Structural Concrete Specification for Building Construction; 4th edition, complying with BS EN 13670:2009
"Lift shafts require a minimum plumb dimension and a positive only tolerance".
https://engineeringsurveyor.com/software/NSCS-Edition-4.pdf
Unable to copy & paste from this, but see §10, "Geometric Tolerances", and especially §10.2.1 on "Inclination".
By my reading this is about deviation of the shaft from perfectly vertical. Hence the reference to a plumb, as in plumb line.
Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumb_bob

The lift will presumably want to hang vertically. If the shaft has the necessary width to accommodate the lift but has been built on a slight angle, then the lift may knock into the walls of the shaft — especially in a tall building with a long shaft, where small angular deviations would accumulate into large horizontal 'errors'.

As it is only possible for the shaft to be less vertical than the plumb line — it cannot be more vertical than the plumb line — only a positive tolerance should be specified (to be added onto the minimum [breadth] dimension).

Constructing the shaft wider than this minimum value will allow it to accommodate a lift safely even if there are some deviations from true vertical.
The allowance to be made (the magnitude of the tolerance) may vary from one building to another.

I do not claim the above phrasing to be perfectly idiomatic German, but I think here the main issue is understanding the meaning.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:48:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

By the way, "inclination" in the cited text refers to the 'angle' or 'lean' or 'slope'.
http://www.mathwords.com/a/angle_inclination.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 15:56:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Builder's work — lift well:
· Calculations with regard to the architect's plans and structural loadings.
· Form a plumb lift well and pit according to the architect's drawings and to tolerances acceptable to the lift manufacturer (known as Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)."
https://epdf.pub/queue/building-services-handbook.html

"Form a plumb lift well and pit" is indicating a vertical construction. Although you'd think that'd 'go without saying' ....
"Nominal Minimum Plumb — the basic figures in which the lift equipment can be accommodated)." I believe "ideal" or "bare" (as in "bare minimum") would be better words than "basic" here [I am ignoring "Nominal"].

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:07:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

BTW, very tall buildings ('skyscrapers') sway with the wind: even if they could be built to be perfectly vertical in the absence of wind, they would deviate from vertical in the presence of wind.

"A 40-storey building may sway a foot to the left, a foot to the right. [....] A 100-storey building, by comparison, may move on the order of two-and-a-half to three feet to each side, [...]."
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/06/how-much-do-skyscrapers-a...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2019-08-15 16:20:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think this interpretation is compatible with the "lichte Abmessungen" description uncovered by Rolf Keller, except that "minimum plumb" seems to explicitly also convey the key assumption behind determination of the minimum.

licht: .../"[...]; spärlich"/"(von Öffnungen o. Ä.) von der einen zur anderen inneren Begrenzungsfläche gemessen"
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/licht

D. I. Verrelli
Australia
Local time: 19:50
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  David Moore (X)
1 hr
  -> Thanks :-)

agree  Schtroumpf: Nicht ohne Grund sagt man ja auch "lot"-recht!
2 days 19 hrs
  -> Danke :-)

agree  Barbara Schmidt, M.A. (X): agree
5 days
  -> Sehr nett von Ihnen :-)
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