'relation between' or 'relationship between'

English translation: either

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:\'relation between\' or \'relationship between\'
Selected answer:either
Entered by: Jeannie Graham

15:06 Jul 28, 2011
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Social Sciences - Philosophy / Academic text in British English, Oxford style guide
English term or phrase: 'relation between' or 'relationship between'
I am editing a philosophical text that has been translated from a source language by a translator using mostly American English it seems. My instructions are to follow the Oxford style guide. I am also a British native speaker.

Frequently in the text 'relation between' has been used. My instinct is to change this to 'relationship between', but I am not confident that this change is not more than just British/US style usage. I am concerned I may change the meaning of the philosophical concepts presented!

I would like confirmation that it is acceptable and correct to use 'relationship between' instead of 'relation between' in examples such as the ones below:

1. 'It involves a real relation/relationship between x as cause and y as effect. If beings were distinct heterogeneous entities, there would be no real relation/relationship between them, since each being would then be entirely alien to any other being'.

2.'Hence, everything bears the same relation/relationship to everything else, because no relation/relationship whatsoever holds between two things'.

3. 'The second point is that a causal relation/relationship does not exist between nonbeings'.

4. 'We consider nonbeing as an external property or relation/relationship of things'.

Any help appreciated. Thanks
Jeannie Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:28
either
Explanation:
Both are used and it is a matter of personal preference

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Note added at 44 mins (2011-07-28 15:51:13 GMT)
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"Following Stephen Ross’ edited collection Modernism and Theory: A Critical Debate (2009) which seeks ‘to recapture the continuities among modernism and theory’, this event will address specific concerns about the relationship between historical and theoretical approaches to modernism (in its various definitions), local and transnational locations, canonical and marginalised thinkers, political and philosophical readings."
http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/snms/interceptionssymposium...

"... examines the relationship between different forms of knowledge about the .... American Anthropological Association's style guide for in-text citations ..."
www.ames.cam.ac.uk/dmes/islamic/MES20-syllabus-2011-12.pdf

";www.qeh.ox.ac.uk/pdf/pdf.../MSc MS Handbook 2010-11.pdf
The relation between migratory processes, immigration controls and labour markets ..... change: how can migration studies best approach the relationship between ...... A style guide can be found in the back of any issue of the journal; ..."
";www.qeh.ox.ac.uk/pdf/pdf.../MSc MS Handbook 2010-11.pdf
Selected response from:

B D Finch
France
Local time: 15:28
Grading comment
thank you. Taking answers here and further research into account, it really seems to be that AE has a preference for 'relation', whilst BE uses either, with a slight preference for 'relationship'. As I am editing into BE and as a native speaker of BE, 'relationship' tends to feel more natural to me. I have in any case contacted the client to point this out and ask for their opinion on this, to cover myself.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
3 +4Stay with 'relation'
Demi Ebrite
4 +2either
B D Finch
2"relation" in a philosophical context
vierama
Summary of reference entries provided
Usage in BrEN and AmEN.
D. I. Verrelli

  

Answers


35 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
either


Explanation:
Both are used and it is a matter of personal preference

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 44 mins (2011-07-28 15:51:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Following Stephen Ross’ edited collection Modernism and Theory: A Critical Debate (2009) which seeks ‘to recapture the continuities among modernism and theory’, this event will address specific concerns about the relationship between historical and theoretical approaches to modernism (in its various definitions), local and transnational locations, canonical and marginalised thinkers, political and philosophical readings."
http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/snms/interceptionssymposium...

"... examines the relationship between different forms of knowledge about the .... American Anthropological Association's style guide for in-text citations ..."
www.ames.cam.ac.uk/dmes/islamic/MES20-syllabus-2011-12.pdf

";www.qeh.ox.ac.uk/pdf/pdf.../MSc MS Handbook 2010-11.pdf
The relation between migratory processes, immigration controls and labour markets ..... change: how can migration studies best approach the relationship between ...... A style guide can be found in the back of any issue of the journal; ..."
";www.qeh.ox.ac.uk/pdf/pdf.../MSc MS Handbook 2010-11.pdf

B D Finch
France
Local time: 15:28
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 12
Grading comment
thank you. Taking answers here and further research into account, it really seems to be that AE has a preference for 'relation', whilst BE uses either, with a slight preference for 'relationship'. As I am editing into BE and as a native speaker of BE, 'relationship' tends to feel more natural to me. I have in any case contacted the client to point this out and ask for their opinion on this, to cover myself.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Demi Ebrite: If there is a kinship between two or more things that can be defined, 'relationship; will hold. If it is a connection without specific kinship, 'relation' seems to be the word./ In philosophical refs, the terms are separated by a the exact def. of kinship
8 mins
  -> What do you mean by "kinship"? What do you base this comment on?

agree  Charles Davis: I think Demi's comment is conditioned by American usage. Your answer is quite right: either is correct. British philosophers regularly use "relationship". See definition 5 of relationship quoted by vierama below: "logic, maths. another name for relation".
35 mins
  -> Thanks Charles

agree  Liz Dexter (was Broomfield)
1 hr
  -> Thanks Liz

neutral  Kaj Genell: I must say I think Demi has made a valuabel comment.
62 days
  -> The asker specifically asked about UK usage; Demi's answer is about US usage. In some circumstances,"relation between" can sound wrong to a UK English speaker - as though the wrong preposition has been used.
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59 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
"relation" in a philosophical context


Explanation:
World English Dictionary
relation (rɪˈleɪʃən)

— n
1. the state or condition of being related or the manner in which things are related
2. connection by blood or marriage; kinship
3. a person who is connected by blood or marriage; relative; kinsman
4. reference or regard (esp in the phrase in or with relation to )
5. the position, association, connection, or status of one person or thing with regard to another or others
6. the act of relating or narrating
7. an account or narrative
8. law the principle by which an act done at one time is regarded in law as having been done antecedently
9. law the statement of grounds of complaint made by a relator
10. logic, maths
a. an association between ordered pairs of objects, numbers, etc, such as … is greater than …
b. the set of ordered pairs whose members have such an association
11. philosophy
a. internal relation: a relation that necessarily holds between its relata, as 4 is greater than 2
b. external relation: a relation that does not so hold

compare:

World English Dictionary
relationship (rɪˈleɪʃənʃɪp)

— n
1. the state of being connected or related
2. association by blood or marriage; kinship
3. the mutual dealings, connections, or feelings that exist between two parties, countries, people, etc: a business relationship
4. an emotional or sexual affair or liaison
5. logic, maths another name for relation



vierama
Local time: 15:28
Native speaker of: Native in SlovakSlovak
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38 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +4
Stay with 'relation'


Explanation:

Definition of relation: "an aspect or quality (as resemblance) that connects two or more things or parts as being or belonging or working together or as being of the same kind <the relation of time and space>; specifically : a property (as one expressed by is equal to, is less than, or is the brother of) that holds between an ordered pair of objects "

Definition of relationship: ": the relation connecting or binding participants in a relationship: as a : kinship b : a specific instance or type of kinship "

In the philosophical statements sited in your example, I don't see a debate for any sort of "kinship", but more an aspect that connects two things. It is my opinion that "relation" is correctly used in these examples.

The reference link is to the definition of "relation" in the online " Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy".

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Note added at 1 hr (2011-07-28 16:37:50 GMT)
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A suggestion may be to search through:
"Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy" http://plato.stanford.edu/
"Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy" http://www.iep.utm.edu/
"Philosophy Resources at Harvard: Dictionaries & Encyclopedias:
http://hcl.harvard.edu/research/guides/philosophy/#second

Searching "relate" "relationship" and "kinship" may help with this answer.


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Note added at 1 hr (2011-07-28 16:48:21 GMT)
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Charles and Barbara, you may be entirely correct with regard to the BE usage (in philosophical writings), but I would recommend that kalimeh not alter that particular usage in her edit, as the translation is not incorrect, and if the words are interchangeable, in which instance should she choose to change from 'relation' to 'relationship'? In her example #2, for instance, I feel that 'relation' works, whereas 'relationship' does not. Personally, I would elect to keep 'relation' as the translator has written it.


    Reference: http://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=relation
Demi Ebrite
United States
Local time: 09:28
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  MSA-Translation: To me, there does seem to be a significant difference in meaning. Based on my intuition from reading and writing a lot of philisophy for my degree in the subject, 'relation' seems far more likely in this kind of technical work, at least in AE.
2 hrs
  -> Thank you, Michael. There are many instances like this one that can arise and it is a fine line to walk. I try to change as little as possible in a good translation, and in this case, I would leave "relate".

agree  Jim Tucker (X)
3 hrs
  -> Thank you, Jim.

agree  Thuy-PTT (X)
6 days
  -> Thank you, Thuy.

agree  D. I. Verrelli: See reference notes to be posted below.
2393 days
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Reference comments


2393 days
Reference: Usage in BrEN and AmEN.

Reference information:
FREQUENCY
There are some claims above regarding usage of "relation between" and "relationship between" (and similar constructions) in BrEN and AmEN.
To objectively assess that, we may examine frequencies of those phrases in the relevant corpora. REF: https://corpus.byu.edu

All texts in BNC (U.K.) and COCA (U.S.A.) corpora:

"relation between": BNC 671; COCA 2226
"relationship between": BNC 3737; COCA 18966
Percentage with "relation": BNC 15.2%; COCA 10.5%

Only academic texts in BNC (U.K.) and COCA (U.S.A.) corpora:

"relation between": BNC 510; COCA 2033
"relationship between": BNC 1690; COCA 13837
Percentage with "relation": BNC 23.2%; COCA 12.8%

Proportion of all occurrences of "relation" that were found in academic texts: BNC 76.0%; COCA 91.3%

So this indicates quite clearly to me that the construction with "relation" is more common in BrEN than it is in AmEN, contrary to some of the assertions provided. This is a substantial difference, being almost 50% more common in BrEN.

Additionally, there is a substantial increase in frequency when restricting the examination to only academic texts — especially for BrEN. Indeed, the great majority of occurrences of the construction with "relation" occur in academic texts.
When considering only academic texts, the construction with "relation" is almost twice as common in BrEN!

The impression on the part of some BrEN-favouring respondents that "relation" is 'less common in BrEN' may have resulted from a subconscious comparison to the usage of "relationship" in day-to-day BrEN (with which they were no doubt familiar), rather than a comparison to actual AmEN usage (with which they probably had less experience).

CONTEXT
Overall, my impression is that:
* "relation" tends to be used more often when specifying quantitative or factual connections;
* "relationship" tends to be used more to specify qualitative interactions [it could also be used as a more abstract noun].

But there is not necessarily an 'inviolable rule', and in practice the words are sometimes used as if they were synonyms (whether rightly or wrongly).

See also web references provided below.

PHILOSOPHY
I have no comments about usage that may be peculiar to philosophy. However, I agree that this would be important to check.



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Note added at 2393 days (2018-02-15 01:49:02 GMT) Post-grading
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BYU-BNC: contains 100 million words, British sources, from 1980s to 1993.
COCA: contains 520 million words, U.S. sources, from 1990 to 2015.

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Note added at 2398 days (2018-02-19 23:38:54 GMT) Post-grading
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See also: https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/home/library/pdfs/writers...


    Reference: http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-relation...
    Reference: http://www.learnersdictionary.com/qa/relations-and-relations...
D. I. Verrelli
Australia
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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