lui reprocher sa propre faute

English translation: he cannot be blamed for his own fault

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:lui reprocher sa propre faute
English translation:he cannot be blamed for his own fault
Entered by: B D Finch

11:41 Oct 5, 2018
French to English translations [Non-PRO]
Law/Patents - Insurance
French term or phrase: lui reprocher sa propre faute
This is from a civil case relating to a road traffic accident in France (involving a stationary vehicle and another vehicle that drove into it from behind) and a dispute over insurance payouts. I'm having issues with the middle of the sentence "et l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable,..". The full sentence is as follows:

Soit la victime est conductrice, alors la faute de M. X est à l'origine exclusive de l'accident, soit la victime est piétonne lors de l'accident et l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience.

Thank you!
Rebecca Elliott
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:42
he/they cannot be blamed for his/their own fault
Explanation:
In the context of insurance, one speaks of "fault", rather than "mistake" in this context. In fact, it seems from the Asker's later discussion entry that the victim was a man. A couple of people seem to have imagined it was a woman, having failed to appreciate the fact that, in French, after the feminine "victime" related pronouns and nouns will also take the feminine form, even if the victim was a man. However, if the sex of the victim was unknown I think that nowadays the acceptable way of dealing with this is by using "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun.

I think that SafeTex is completely wrong in his interpretation that " the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event". On the contrary:

" l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience."

In spite of the missing "pas", it is clear from how the sentence continues " à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable …", that the writer is saying that the victim cannot be blamed for his own fault unless the fault is inexcusable because being deliberate, exceptionally serious etc. This extract actually does not go on to say whether or not those circumstances applied. Presumably, your text does go on to make a statement about that.

An example of a fault to which those exceptions applied would be that of a pedestrian who suddenly stepped into the road without looking (but with no suicidal intention), when an oncoming car was too close for the driver to be able to stop in time to avoid hitting them. In that case, the pedestrian would have been responsible for "une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience."

Selected response from:

B D Finch
France
Local time: 11:42
Grading comment
Thank you
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +4you can not blame them [the victims] for their own mistakes
Daryo
4 +2he/they cannot be blamed for his/their own fault
B D Finch
5 -3you cannot accuse the victim of having made a mistake
SafeTex


Discussion entries: 14





  

Answers


3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
he/they cannot be blamed for his/their own fault


Explanation:
In the context of insurance, one speaks of "fault", rather than "mistake" in this context. In fact, it seems from the Asker's later discussion entry that the victim was a man. A couple of people seem to have imagined it was a woman, having failed to appreciate the fact that, in French, after the feminine "victime" related pronouns and nouns will also take the feminine form, even if the victim was a man. However, if the sex of the victim was unknown I think that nowadays the acceptable way of dealing with this is by using "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun.

I think that SafeTex is completely wrong in his interpretation that " the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event". On the contrary:

" l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience."

In spite of the missing "pas", it is clear from how the sentence continues " à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable …", that the writer is saying that the victim cannot be blamed for his own fault unless the fault is inexcusable because being deliberate, exceptionally serious etc. This extract actually does not go on to say whether or not those circumstances applied. Presumably, your text does go on to make a statement about that.

An example of a fault to which those exceptions applied would be that of a pedestrian who suddenly stepped into the road without looking (but with no suicidal intention), when an oncoming car was too close for the driver to be able to stop in time to avoid hitting them. In that case, the pedestrian would have been responsible for "une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience."



B D Finch
France
Local time: 11:42
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 92
Grading comment
Thank you

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  SafeTex: Same problem as other answer. You CAN be blamed for your own fault.
6 hrs
  -> The point is to translate the source text, not to substitute your own ideas. This is about insurance law, not your personal philosophy.

agree  Daryo: can only agree - basically the same interpretation / I did hesitate between "fault" and "mistake" -
15 hrs
  -> Thanks Daryo

agree  Tony M: From asker's extra context, we do seem to know it was a man? I agree about 'fault' (see my discussion post), though I'm a little uneasy about 'blamed for their fault'... Dear me, sorry, read that completely the wrong way round... before coffee!
16 hrs
  -> Thank's Tony. The term "blame" is used in insurance and is distinct from "fault". Unless the Asker made a mistake in her Discussion post, we know he was a man: "as he'd broken down".

agree  ph-b (X): that's what the text says and with 'fault' and the passive voice.
23 hrs
  -> Thanks
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -3
you cannot accuse the victim of having made a mistake


Explanation:
Hello

I've given my reasons for this particular formula in my disagrees to other proposed answers.

You CAN blame someone for his own mistake/fault so the other answers just don't make sense in this context, quite the opposite in fact as they are contradictions

Regards







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Note added at 18 hrs (2018-10-06 06:29:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ms. Finch wrote in her remarks

"I think that SafeTex is completely wrong in his interpretation that " the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event". On the contrary:"

I never suggested this. I quote (with key words in bold)

"The solution is in my view to say something like "you cannot accuse the victim of having made a mistake, NOR can she be blamed for the accident unless she had done something reckless...(which was NOT the case in the lawyer's view)


Example sentence(s):
SafeTex
France
Local time: 11:42
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 18

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Daryo: It seems that you have confused the logic of law with the everyday ["normal"] logic // just an example of that dissonance / disparity (whatever you want to call it) - ever heard people saying that "the law is an ass"?//What's wrong with that?
8 hrs
  -> Yep, I've also heard "as stubborn as a mule" :)

disagree  Tony M: In this sort of legal document it is not a question of a mistake -- in fact, it could indeed be considered a mistake, it is definitely advised against! -- BUT it is not justification for being at fault in respect of the accident!
9 hrs
  -> okay so maybe "you cannot accuse the victim of being at fault".

disagree  B D Finch: I don't see how you can deny your Discussion entry of 14:00 Oct 5, that I quoted. The victim appears to have been a man "as he'd broken down" and, as he's dead, he can't be accused. Insurance uses the terms "blame" and "fault", not "accuse" and "mistake".
11 hrs
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34 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute
you can not blame them [the victims] for their own mistakes


Explanation:


Soit la victime est conductrice, alors la faute de M. X est à l'origine exclusive de l'accident, soit la victime est piétonne lors de l'accident et l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience.


on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute => lui = " la victime qui est piétonne lors de l'accident"


faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience.
=> sounds like suicide

the meaning:

-- on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute => you can't blame the victim because the victim made some mistake, as in: if you can't be bothered to slow down and run over someone who inadvertently crossed the road on a red light for pedestrians you are still responsible, or in this case the fact that a car was partially obstructing the road doesn't absolve you from your responsibility if you drive into it.

-- à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable => if someone threw themselves suddenly in the front of your car, you can't be held responsible.


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Note added at 19 hrs (2018-10-06 07:19:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

...
=> sounds like suicide, or deliberately playing some stupid daredevil games

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:42
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 39
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks Daryo; this makes it much clearer.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: Though I don't totally adhere to your scenario... / I think the use of 'on' here invites the use of the passive, as I've suggested in discussion: they cannot be deemed to be at fault...
13 mins
  -> Thanks!

agree  AllegroTrans: But I would use "him" or "her" (if this is known from the rest of the document), so as not to imply the plural, and I would use "one" rather "you" (as lawyers tend to)
34 mins
  -> I was thinking of adding "one ..." as an alternative // I put the plural deliberately as it doesn't change nothing to the meaning and the explanation and avoids the distraction of fiddling with him / him or her / him/here / they ... Thanks

agree  Eliza Hall
54 mins
  -> Thanks!

disagree  SafeTex: No way. Please see my reasons in discussion
58 mins
  -> I'm very interested to see what alternative explanation you could make thanks to using the singular?

agree  writeaway: No way this is 100% wrong
20 hrs
  -> I would hope so. Thanks!

agree  ph-b (X): Not sure about your explanations but I agree that your suggested translation reflects what the text says
1 day 1 hr
  -> Merci!
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