faire du droit

English translation: without/while not wishing to venture into the legal field / while I cannot claim to be a lawyer...

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:sans vouloir faire du droit
English translation:without/while not wishing to venture into the legal field / while I cannot claim to be a lawyer...
Entered by: Charlotte Allen

20:57 May 21, 2020
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general) / Litigation
French term or phrase: faire du droit
"Sans vouloir faire du droit, nous observons que la jurisprudence évolue depuis 2005 et pose une définition générale des grosses réparations."

This is from submissions by an expert to a French court - the expert is an engineer, appointed to determine whether certain work on a property constitutes minor repairs such as the tenant should be liable for, or major ones that the landlord must pay for. After setting out what the Code Civil says about these two types of repairs, he makes the comment above.

Would anybody care to suggest what precisely he's getting at with the phrase "Sans vouloir faire du droit"? Obviously he IS commenting on legal matters, but doesn't want to overstep the bounds.

How could this be translated? I'm thinking along the lines of "Without wishing to go too deeply into the law..." but maybe that's an overtranslation. And perhaps there's some nuance that I'm missing in the word "faire"?

Thanks in advance!
Charlotte Allen
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
while not wanting to venture into the legal field
Explanation:
This expert is an expert when it comes to building work, not an expert in legal matters.

Sans vouloir faire du droit = I wouldn't want to start acting as a legal expert, (literally: I wouldn't want to do "legal")

101% sure about the meaning, OTOH could be expressed in many different ways.


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Note added at 1 hr (2020-05-21 22:19:22 GMT)
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while not wanting to venture into the legal field, I would still want to remind that ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2020-05-21 23:00:23 GMT)
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"faire du droit" as used in this text is the same pattern as "faire de la voile" "faire de la restauration" "faire de la peinture/du violon" etc ...
Selected response from:

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +5while not wanting to venture into the legal field
Daryo
4 +4(without wishing) to state the law/without wishing to be a lawyer
AllegroTrans
4 +4while I cannot claim / make no claim to be a lawyer
Joshua Parker
3practicing law
Tahar OUAHAB
3decide the ultimate legal issue
Adrian MM.
3 -1create new law
mrrafe
2...without resorting to [the] legalese...
Chris Pr
3 -2to study or dictate the law / to make an important decision
Lisa Rosengard


Discussion entries: 6





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
(without wishing) to state the law/without wishing to be a lawyer


Explanation:
Expert witnesses are under a very high duty of impartiality. Therefore they cannot make statements of law. This expert witness seems to be summarising the law as it relate to tenant repairs, so he makes it clear that he is not stating what the law is - obviously that's the remit of the Judge/Judges hearing the case.

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 1355
Notes to answerer
Asker: Yes, I also feel this is the broad meaning of his statement.

Asker: I also asked myself whether he was in fact talking about 'making new law' (in the sense 'hard cases make bad law', and in the sense that jurisprudence 'makes' law, yes, even in legal systems with extensive codification, like France!). But honestly, having thought about this further and looking at the document as a whole, I don't really think that's his intended meaning. I think he's providing an overview of the statute and the caselaw to give background to his report, and he wants to make clear that he's only doing this for context, not because he suddenly thinks he's a lawyer. But I do very much appreciate where you are coming from and the time you've put into this!

Asker: Sorry, the second note above was intended for Mrrafe


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Daryo: without wishing to be a lawyer - works also.
25 mins
  -> thank you

agree  Yvonne Gallagher
12 hrs

agree  Eliza Hall: Yes, that's exactly what he's saying, though I prefer Daryo's and Joshua's turns of phrase.
18 hrs

agree  erwan-l
1 day 18 hrs
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48 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
create new law


Explanation:
Please see 1st discussion entry

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2020-05-21 22:22:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Daryo, I understand your interpretation but still find mine more credible. if's a question of the engineer's intent with "faire," left debatable in this quote. I've presented many engineer witnesses and if this one felt they were trespassing into law, their testimony would have been more convincing had they not raised that suggestion at all but just claimed the 2005 provisions are obsolete. Alternatively they could have used more articulate language to disavow legal expertise if that was their point. Asker probably can better discern the engineer's strategy and meaning if she has access to the testimony as a whole, including any cross examination.

mrrafe
United States
Local time: 03:18
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 32
Notes to answerer
Asker: Yes, I also asked myself whether he was in fact talking about 'making new law' (in the sense 'hard cases make bad law', and in the sense that jurisprudence 'makes' law, yes, even in legal systems with extensive codification, like France!). But honestly, having thought about this further and looking at the document as a whole, I don't really think that's his intended meaning. I think he's providing an overview of the statute and the caselaw to give background to his report, and he wants to make clear that he's only doing this for context, not because he suddenly thinks he's a lawyer. But I do very much appreciate where you are coming from and the time you've put into this!I also feel this is the broad meaning of his statement.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Daryo: you got a wrong meaning of "faire" - this expert is not talking of "making new laws" but "doing(=practicing) law", i.e. acting as a lawyer// there is just about 2 pages in small print of various meanings of "faire" in Le Petit Robert...
12 mins

agree  Mpoma: yes
39 mins
  -> Thank you. We shall see (or not)

disagree  Eliza Hall: As Daryo says, he's talking about practicing law, not making law.
19 hrs
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16 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
sans vouloir faire du droit
while not wanting to venture into the legal field


Explanation:
This expert is an expert when it comes to building work, not an expert in legal matters.

Sans vouloir faire du droit = I wouldn't want to start acting as a legal expert, (literally: I wouldn't want to do "legal")

101% sure about the meaning, OTOH could be expressed in many different ways.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2020-05-21 22:19:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

while not wanting to venture into the legal field, I would still want to remind that ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2020-05-21 23:00:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"faire du droit" as used in this text is the same pattern as "faire de la voile" "faire de la restauration" "faire de la peinture/du violon" etc ...

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 196
Notes to answerer
Asker: This is very nicely expressed and I think approaches the expert's meaning.

Asker: This was closest to what I used in the end. Thanks


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Adrian MM.: without wanting to stray into the law - but there is a different way of expressing this in the Anglo-Irish-Am. law of evidence....
2 hrs
  -> Thanks!

agree  Yvonne Gallagher: yes, this is the meaning
13 hrs
  -> Thanks!

agree  Eliza Hall: This works. It's exactly what he means ("I'm not a lawyer, but I am aware that the legal landscape has shifted since 2005 in XYZ respect...").
19 hrs
  -> Thanks!

agree  tradu-grace: This is the right rendering of the French into EN in this very context. Grace
1 day 13 hrs
  -> Thanks!

agree  erwan-l
1 day 19 hrs
  -> Thanks!
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
practicing law


Explanation:
"Sans vouloir faire du droit=Without wanting to go into law

Tahar OUAHAB
Algeria
Local time: 08:18
Native speaker of: Native in ArabicArabic

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Eliza Hall: That is what it means, though not the turn of phrase I would choose in EN. Daryo's and Joshua's turns of phrase are better.
17 hrs
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
decide the ultimate legal issue


Explanation:
I think this is how the idea would be expressed in the Anglo-Am. law of evidence: experts are not - in certain US Federal States but, contrary a long tradition, now are in E&W - allowed to speculate or 'pontificate on the ultimate issue'......


Example sentence(s):
  • The position under English law is different from that in the United States as there is no rule preventing an expert from giving an opinion on the 'ultimate issue' in E&W. This has been confirmed by the English Courts in both criminal and *civil* cases.

    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_issue_(law)
Adrian MM.
Austria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 359

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Mpoma: Yes. The problem is that the French expression is so informal/throwaway that it is quite ambiguous. But on balance this seems the most sensible interpretation.
10 hrs
  -> Merci and thanks - a slight problem is to wit that an ultimate issue is often one of 'fact', like insanity, rather than of 'law'.

neutral  AllegroTrans: This may well be what the expert effectively meant, but he clearly didn't use such a precise phrase; I thinl the informality needs to be retained
13 hrs
  -> Yes. You are right. I introduced the term of art of 'ultimate issue' mainly for information and educational purposes---

disagree  Eliza Hall: Your comments are correct (experts can't do this, etc.), but that's not what this expert is talking about, so the translation is incorrect.
16 hrs
  -> ... in your opinion on the ultimate issue - that ought to have occurred on the asker's formulation of her question: ' Obviously he IS commenting on legal matters, but doesn't want to overstep the bounds.'
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18 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -2
to study or dictate the law / to make an important decision


Explanation:
I believe that the person speaking wishes to avoid making an important decision or judgement.

Example sentence(s):
  • Sans vouloir faire du droit nous observons que la jurisprudence évolue depuis 2005 et (elle) pose une définition générale des grosses réparations.
  • One wishes to avoid studying or stipulating the law by making an important decision, yet it's observed that jurisprudence has been evolving since 2005 and it contains a general definition (code of practice) on major repairs.
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Eliza Hall: No, he's just saying although he's not a lawyer, he is aware that certain legal rules have evolved since 2005. He's not talking about making a decision, just about the degree to which he, as a non-lawyer, can accurately speak of that evolution.
1 hr

disagree  AllegroTrans: He clearly HAS studied the law on this subject and he is making it clear that it's the Court's remit to apply it and to make a decision, and not his
1 day 22 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
while I cannot claim / make no claim to be a lawyer


Explanation:
Given the context, I think this could work and still sounds natural.
As you say, he clearly IS commenting on legal matters, and as an expert to the court has been appointed to do so, but is still hedging his words.

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Note added at 19 hrs (2020-05-22 16:57:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Correction/Clarification: He was of course appointed to comment on building work, not legal matters. The translation still stands, though.
FWIW, and in response to some of the other answers proposed here, I don't think "faire" can be construed as "make" here (as in "make law"), nor do I think "faire du droit" is particularly informal. Not formal, certainly, but I think a standard/neutral register would do.

Joshua Parker
Mexico
Local time: 00:18
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: Another really great suggestion, too many good options here!

Asker: I really liked this suggestion; kind of wish I could split the points on this question, as I'm planning to incorporate your suggestion in a glossary entry. In the end what I submitted was closest to Daryo's suggestion, though. Thanks anyway!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Daryo: the translation could work BUT your explanation doesn't hold water: this expert WASN'T appointed to comment on legal matters but on building work
7 hrs
  -> Yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out.

agree  SafeTex: I think this is what is it in essence. He did his report as an engineer in relation to a pont of law. He cannot dissassociate the two but he cannot speak as a legal expert either.
9 hrs
  -> Thanks.

neutral  Yvonne Gallagher: Your explanation is wrong
11 hrs

agree  writeaway
15 hrs
  -> Thanks.

agree  Eliza Hall: This works. He's just saying (to paraphrase) "I'm not a lawyer, but I am aware that the legal horizon has changed since 2005..."
17 hrs
  -> Yes - that's how I read it, too. Thanks.

agree  Mpoma: Yes, I'm convinced. "Sans vouloir..." is just a common colloquial expression (though I'd say pretty informal), used here to mean "may I just say, incidentally, ...".
19 hrs
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1 day 4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
...without resorting to [the] legalese...


Explanation:
...or maybe "while avoiding /sidestepping"...either way would simplify and shorten the target term...


Chris Pr
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  AllegroTrans: I think using the word 'legalese' confuses the issue
1 day 12 hrs
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