Sib13b9

English translation: Bb13b9

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:Sib13b9
English translation:Bb13b9
Entered by: Charles Davis

13:43 Sep 23, 2015
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Music
French term or phrase: Sib13b9
OK, I'm stuck. This is about chords played on a saxophone. I figured out all of them except the first one. Couldn't find any examples of chord notation in English which included the numbers 13 and 9. Any budding musicians out there who might be able to help ?! Thank you !

"Coltrane s’appuie sur des accords enrichis (Sib13b9 - Mibm7 - Mi7 - Mi9 - SiM7), pour produire des harmonies délicates, feutrées, feulantes, avec une sonorité qui évoque celle de Lester Young."
Lorna Coing
France
Local time: 11:53
Bb13b9
Explanation:
In other words, B flat thirteenth with a flat ninth.

B flat is the root. The seventh is A flat, the ninth is C, the eleventh is E flat and the thirteenth is G. So this chord has a G at the top and the ninth is flat, which means a C flat (enharmonically a B natural). This creates a lovely diminished sound, with the conjunction of B flat and B natural (= C flat). This is Coltrane getting modal.

The same chord, based on C rather than Bb, can be seen here (second chord in the gallery); in this case the eleventh is played too, but it may be left out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth#Gallery

"Bb13b9 = Bb half/whole diminished scale"
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvisation/2326-naima-chan...

Coltrane uses it in Giant Steps:

"Fm7 Bb7 Ebmaj7 C#m7 F#7
Fm9 Bb13b9 Eb6/9 C#m11 F#13 repeat from beginning"
http://www.musiclassroom.com/partitions/Coltrane_giant__tep_...

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Note added at 1 hr (2015-09-23 15:16:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If you play the whole thing with the eleventh as well you have another minor ninth dissonance between the third (D) and the eleventh (Eb). It sounds quite strange. But the flat ninth is a really beautiful effect.

Ninths, elevenths and thirteenths, with various alterations, are staple harmonies in jazz. Previously, in early twentieth-century "classical" music, Ravel in particular used them to marvellous effect.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2015-09-23 15:45:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

By the way, the discussion in my second reference (www.jazzguitar.be) is very interesting. They go on to discuss the half/whole diminished scale implied by this chord. In Bb this scale would be:
Bb B Db D E F G Ab
The flat ninth Cb, as I said, is enharmonically a B.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2015-09-24 13:38:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Accord enrichi": that's a harder question than the first one! It definitely doesn't mean augmented, though an augmented chord would be one example of an "accord enrichi".

The trouble is that the common terminology in the two languages doesn't match, unfortunately. In French an "accord enrichi" is any chord with something added to the basic triad. An ordinary (minor) seventh is already an "accord enrichi". But in English we commonly talk about either "extended chords" or "altered chords". Both of these are "accords enrichis", but they don't include all "accords enrichis": there are some of the latter that are neither extended nor altered. An extended chord is a chord with one or more notes added beyond the seventh: ninths, elevenths and thirteenths are extended chords. An altered chord is a chord with one or more notes altered from the diatonic note to a neighbouring note in the chromatic scale: sharpened or flattened, to put it simply. Augmented and diminished chords are both altered. So the chord you were asking about in this question is both extended (it's a thirteenth) and altered (it has a flat ninth).

But that doesn't exhaust "accords enrichis". A chord with a suspended fourth or added sixth (both common) is enrichi, but it's neither extended nor altered.

I think what you should do is use the literal "enriched chord" for this. It's not common, but it's sometimes used; here, for instance:
https://books.google.es/books?id=MYB8DmNL2XYC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA...

I think it's the best option for you here. An alternative is "coloured chord", but that's a looser term and in practice not quite so broad, in my opinion.
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 11:53
Grading comment
Thank you very much for your help !!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +4Bb13b9
Charles Davis
Summary of reference entries provided
C 13b9 GUITAR CHORDS
Jeffrey Henson

  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
Bb13b9


Explanation:
In other words, B flat thirteenth with a flat ninth.

B flat is the root. The seventh is A flat, the ninth is C, the eleventh is E flat and the thirteenth is G. So this chord has a G at the top and the ninth is flat, which means a C flat (enharmonically a B natural). This creates a lovely diminished sound, with the conjunction of B flat and B natural (= C flat). This is Coltrane getting modal.

The same chord, based on C rather than Bb, can be seen here (second chord in the gallery); in this case the eleventh is played too, but it may be left out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth#Gallery

"Bb13b9 = Bb half/whole diminished scale"
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvisation/2326-naima-chan...

Coltrane uses it in Giant Steps:

"Fm7 Bb7 Ebmaj7 C#m7 F#7
Fm9 Bb13b9 Eb6/9 C#m11 F#13 repeat from beginning"
http://www.musiclassroom.com/partitions/Coltrane_giant__tep_...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2015-09-23 15:16:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If you play the whole thing with the eleventh as well you have another minor ninth dissonance between the third (D) and the eleventh (Eb). It sounds quite strange. But the flat ninth is a really beautiful effect.

Ninths, elevenths and thirteenths, with various alterations, are staple harmonies in jazz. Previously, in early twentieth-century "classical" music, Ravel in particular used them to marvellous effect.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2015-09-23 15:45:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

By the way, the discussion in my second reference (www.jazzguitar.be) is very interesting. They go on to discuss the half/whole diminished scale implied by this chord. In Bb this scale would be:
Bb B Db D E F G Ab
The flat ninth Cb, as I said, is enharmonically a B.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2015-09-24 13:38:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Accord enrichi": that's a harder question than the first one! It definitely doesn't mean augmented, though an augmented chord would be one example of an "accord enrichi".

The trouble is that the common terminology in the two languages doesn't match, unfortunately. In French an "accord enrichi" is any chord with something added to the basic triad. An ordinary (minor) seventh is already an "accord enrichi". But in English we commonly talk about either "extended chords" or "altered chords". Both of these are "accords enrichis", but they don't include all "accords enrichis": there are some of the latter that are neither extended nor altered. An extended chord is a chord with one or more notes added beyond the seventh: ninths, elevenths and thirteenths are extended chords. An altered chord is a chord with one or more notes altered from the diatonic note to a neighbouring note in the chromatic scale: sharpened or flattened, to put it simply. Augmented and diminished chords are both altered. So the chord you were asking about in this question is both extended (it's a thirteenth) and altered (it has a flat ninth).

But that doesn't exhaust "accords enrichis". A chord with a suspended fourth or added sixth (both common) is enrichi, but it's neither extended nor altered.

I think what you should do is use the literal "enriched chord" for this. It's not common, but it's sometimes used; here, for instance:
https://books.google.es/books?id=MYB8DmNL2XYC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA...

I think it's the best option for you here. An alternative is "coloured chord", but that's a looser term and in practice not quite so broad, in my opinion.

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 11:53
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 20
Grading comment
Thank you very much for your help !!
Notes to answerer
Asker: Fantastic! Thank you so much. And just to be sure - I was thinking 'accords enrichis' was augmented chords, but with all this talk about diminished chords, have I got that wrong ?


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  AbrahamS
25 mins
  -> Thanks, Abraham :)

agree  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: Coltrane "getting modal". Like it!
2 hrs
  -> Thanks, Nikki :) He was a genius, without a doubt, though there are times I can't follow what he's trying to do!

agree  Rebecca Mynett
18 hrs
  -> Many thanks, Rebecca :)

agree  John Holland
1 day 38 mins
  -> Thanks, John :)
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Reference comments


1 hr peer agreement (net): -1
Reference: C 13b9 GUITAR CHORDS

Reference information:
Sorry, I don't know enough about reading music to know if this is of any help, but thought I would post it in case you wanted to have a look.

"Name: Dominant 13th b9. Symbols: 13b9"


    Reference: http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/index.php?ch=C&mm=13b9
Jeffrey Henson
France
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
disagree  Rebecca Mynett: The 13 b (flat) 9 bit is right, but si = B (not C)
18 hrs
  -> Hi. My suggestion was not "C". "C 13b9 GUITAR CHORDS" is just the title at the top of the page I referenced.
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