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French to English translations [PRO] Bus/Financial - Real Estate
French term or phrase:ramené
Property valuation, flat in upmarket area of Paris.
"EVALUATION.
CONCLUSION.
Compte tenu d'une part, des caractéristiques, de la localisation du bien étudié, et d'autre part, du marché immobilier considéré et des références relevées, la méthode d'évaluation par "comparaison directe" nous conduit à proposer, une valeur comprise entre :
I) Appartement avec le stationnement 1.444.444 Euros et 1.888.888 Euros. (Fourchette de prix actualisée et ramenée entre 12.888 € et 13.111 € le m2)"
What (on Earth) might they mean by "ramené" here?
Bearing in mind that estate agents/valuers choose their words very carefully at this point in their valuations. So I think the concept of "reduced" is unlikely to be meant: sounds too negative, might frighten the seller, etc. And also doesn't seem to fit the context.
Explanation: It's just not a way we'd express this idea in EN, but that's essentially what it means in this and so many other contexts — think of the basic notion of 'brought to...' Of course, you'll need to completely re-formulate it in EN, to make it sound natural!
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 12 days (2020-06-03 10:05:36 GMT) Post-grading --------------------------------------------------
It's not surprising, they are led astray by this faux ami of 'reduce' — which is after all the ultimate sense of 'boils down to', which is the sense here — and it very often found in technical, mathematical contexts where we would less often expect to find 'reduce' in EN — one example might be in the simplification of equations.
I never felt it could be "reduced". The suggestion from ph-b is "narrowed down to between". I'm fairly sure ph-b and François Boye have interpreted the expression as per this EN expression. But you are very convincing. I just wish another French-speaker could endorse this (and rule out "narrowed down").
I see this term used a great deal in this way in technical contexts, where it generally has something of the sense of 'which comes down to...', which I think is the underlying notion here; it is used a lot in things with equations or ratios or proportions, or things where one type of dimension is being compared to another. As for that 'actualisé', I remain convinced that this latest valuation for the property as a whole means that it now comes into a different bracket per m² — let's face it, the price / m² is calculated backwards from the overall price, NOT the reverse. So if the current valuation (which must in some way relate to a previous one, even if that was decades ago!) has increased (perhaps), then the resulting price / m² will come out at a different figure ... but is fairly unlikely to have been 'reduced' in any way! I think the reason the native FR speakers are having trouble with the expression in EN is simply this slightly divergent way of looking at things.
@TonyM yes, I agree with your reasoning. It's funny how the two French native-speakers who have contributed to this question have been so sure about "narrowed down". I have a slight counter-reasoning to your reasoning (though nowhere as strong): if "ramené" is just the idea of "calculating as per price per m2", why put "actualisé" before it? Also, on this comprehensive page of definitions (https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/ramener ) I can see no sign either of your meaning... but nor for that matter of "ramener entre" (at all).
And I also see no sense in 'narrowed down' here, which sounds wrong in the context; the text simply states the price per sq. metre bracket - this isn't "narrowed down" it simply is
What no-one has really addressed here is the fact that the first figures described are their valuation of the property as a whole; while the second figures merely describe the price bracket in which it falls, as expressed in € / m². Hence why we might understand 'ramené' as meaning something like 'which works out at' — it is very often used in this sense in mathematical type contexts, like '€ X for the whole batch, which works out at €y each'
My feeling about 'actualisé' is that this new valuation perhaps brings it into a different 'fourchette' from that in which it had previously been valued.
ph-b (X)
France
"How can you make that claim?"
05:12 May 22, 2020
Err... not sure, actually. Was it past my usual bedtime? Have to think about it, so ignore it for the time being. While on the subject, please read "I've no idea whether an estate agent..." in my answer. As for the rest, I stand by what I said in the discussion and my answer. Have a good weekend, and this time for good; off to enjoy le déconfinement one week late.
ph-b (X)
France
22:05 May 21, 2020
le comportement humain ramené à gnagnagna You made that one up - not me! Hehe. That isn't the p p of se ramener. As for ramener entre not cropping up, I'm not surpised: as mentioned above, this is an elliptic turn of phrase and not the most felicitous either... Try the ramener à un chiffre compris entre... version. Have a good weekend!
"their p p can't be used independently" ... le comportement humain ramené à gnagnagna.... How can you make that claim?
But I'm convinced enough about "narrow down" to adopt this choice and put a note in for the client.
Conversely I just spent a few minutes looking for how "narrow down" is normally translated to French: ramener entre didn't crop up once. Nor can I find this expression in any online French monolingual dictionaries. However, Linguee does show some evidence of what looks like such usage (i.e. in the source): https://www.linguee.com/french-english/translation/ramené en...
Also you and François Boye, native speakers, are clearly sure. That's a powerful argument.
ph-b (X)
France
Grammar point (2)
19:39 May 21, 2020
"There is no way to indicate, with an isolated past participle," Yes, there is. The auxiliary used with reflexive verbs is être and being reflexive verbs, their p p can't be used independently. Here you would have s'étant ramenée, which would be meaningless.<p>Please note I never said this is sloppy grammar. What I'm saying is that what this grammatically-correct sentence is saying is misunderstood according to me and that the risk is high that the translation will not be precise enough at best, or inaccurate at worst.<p>As for the missing à, this is because there are two figures here. À would be used with one figure only, whereas you need to have entre with two figures: ramenée à 10,000€ vs. ramenée (à un chiffre compris) entre 8,000€ et 12,000€. I agree the elliptic version is not the best French I've seen, and that may be the initial reason for your question, but that's what we have to deal with.<p>Edit: I've given up on paragraphs - no longer working here!
As I say, there is no reference whatsoever to a previous valuation, and having done these things a lot I would be alert to signs that anything, anything at all, was "with reference to" something else. Which doesn't of course totally rule out the possibility that this is the sole point in the document which indicates your scenario.
Concerning your grammar point: this is the example in the Trésor: "Tout le comportement humain se ramène-t-il, en fin de compte, à des réflexes conditionnés?". Here the agency is, from a technical grammar PoV, "le comportement humain". But in reality the agent is the person holding such a view. After the "process" has taken place we are left with "boiled down" comportement humain. It doesn't matter who did the boiling. It is then "comportement humain ramené". There is no way to indicate, with an isolated past participle with no auxiliary verb, whether the agent which left it in that state was itself or something else.
And if you consider this to be sloppy grammar (I don't), what about the fact that in the text "ramenée" is not followed by "à"? "Ramenée entre...": inelegant to the point of incoherence. For me this is just a case of estate-agent-ese.
ph-b (X)
France
" 'boils downs to' fits perfectly with
16:16 May 21, 2020
'se ramener à' in the 3rd meaning there"
Please note that the verb has this meaning when its reflexive form is used (3. Empl. pronom. Se réduire.). It is not used like that in your text: la fourchette de prix ne se ramène pas à… Elle est ramenée à… That, to me, makes a difference: it doesn’t boil down to, but is reduced to.
Writing this, I realise, however, that one other possible meaning here is that the scope of the band has been “narrowed down to”, say from between 10.000€ and 15.000 to 12.888 € and 13.111 €.
PS Sorry for the edits, but that <p> tag no longer works here.
I think it just means that this is their current valuation, which puts the value / m² into this new bracket (perhaps it was previously stated in some other bracket?)
Absolutely no suggestion that it's anything other than a bog-standard first valuation.
Again with my idea of vacuousness, "actualisé" could just mean "non-périmé", i.e. "I really have done my sums and not just guessed, honest ...". Most valuers will be aware that the first thing any vendor does on receiving a valuation is jump straight to the figures at the end. So I'm suggesting a slightly fastidious, nervous register, probably intended to instil confidence.
ph-b (X)
France
14:20 May 21, 2020
I understand ramené to mean "reduced to" : évaluation a été actualisée et [ensuite/en conséquence ?] ramenée [réduite] à... Any indication in your text explaining why the evaluation was reassessed? Has anything happened to the property, its location, or even to the sellers, e.g. sthg which would make them opt for a fast sale and so lower the price? This actualisation is intriguing. PS to add "reduced to" = my understanding of the sentence, but may not be the right word to use in the translation itself.
I think it has quite a few slippery meanings, some tangential only to a concept of "reduce". The best way to think about it, I feel, is "re + amener". One good place to look is Trésor de La Langue Française: http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?11... .... => scroll down a bit to "III. Au fig." ... A: the 3 meanings under that.
Ormiston's excellent idea of "boils downs to" fits perfectly with "se ramener à" in the 3rd meaning there. But a valuer would not say "the price boils down to", so something more formal/pompous has to be found.
Explanation: Tony has the right idea, but mayble this expresses it more naturally
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Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks, yes, very much the idea, I think. Ormiston's "boils down to" fits will with the def. in Trésor de la langue française, see discussion.