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English translation: slightly inferior to previous years
09:03 Feb 6, 2015
French to English translations [PRO] Wine / Oenology / Viticulture
French term or phrase:en retrait
Description du millisme 1900:
Très comparables au 1899, leur richessse, leur souplesse et leur velouté leur ont donné une supériorité tardive sur l'année précédente. Les blancs secs sont excellents quoique légèrement en retrait. Une très grande année pour les Sauternes avec des vins d'une grande élégance.
Sorry that was a translation from English, the English expression is Reticent A wine that is not exhibiting much aroma or bouquet characteristics perhaps due to its youth. It can be described as the sense that a wine is "holding back".
I found this defintion "(Reticent) Un vin qui n'est pas expose un grand arôme ou caractéristiques bouquet peut-être en raison de sa jeunesse. Il peut être décrit comme le sens où un vin est "retient"..
Jump on you like a ton of bricks? Perish the thought! I'm very grateful, as always, to be educated :-)
I don't think there is more to be said here. In principle I find it plausible that "en retrait" could mean "reticent" in relation to wine. What I find difficult to understand is that some people feel the alternative doesn't make sense. If the general quality of the 1900 vintage of blancs secs is being compared with that of 1899, and is rated 16 in 1900 and 17 in 1899, isn't it obvious that both are excellent but that 1900 is a little less excellent than 1899? That's all "inferior" means here. And if this same source uses "en retrait" elsewhere to refer to the lesser quality of one year compared with another, as I have shown it does, I cannot see how the plausibility of this reading can reasonably be doubted. Which doesn't mean that it must be right, but does mean that it could be.
The grape varieties will of course NOT vary from year to year for any particular wine! But the vintage reports do of course, and these reflect how the conditions and management have affected each individual wine in the year in question
you really can't generalise at all with wine translations. You'll find that tasting notes vary for each wine and with each vintage. Otherwise, there would be no need for all the tasting notes that I translate for every wine for each vintage, as they would always be the same! I'm quite sure that a wine that is reticent one year may not necessarily be reticent the following year. This of course applies to all the other qualities that a wine may possess, and which definitely vary from vintage to vintage as well as from variety to variety, depending on the season (weather, disease, green harvesting, and other vineyard management techniques, etc, etc)
One further point that occurs to me is that this is a statement about all 1900 dry white Bordeaux. It seems to me that reticence is normally a characteristic of particular wines, and wines that are reticent would probably be so in all vintages, though perhaps in varying ways and degrees. The idea of all the dry white wines from a region being reticent in one particular year seems strange to me, though I don't claim to be an expert.
For reference, I found that example by searching "légèrement en retrait" after "vins" + "en retrait" only returned references to yield. There are probably similar searches that could be done to investigate further but I'm trying to take a day off today so instead I'm going to return to my book and bacon sandwich
is that they are pretty much NEVER used in the standard way. Another problem - at least in my fairly extensive experience of wine translations - is that they are frequently quite sloppily put together, or even in a form of shorthand. Of course, this isn't always the case, especially in, e.g., a reputable wine journal, but it is pretty frequent in blogs. So you can't always rely on the syntax...
It makes perfect sense and it's something that could well be said. I repeat, I'm not saying that the text we have here can't possibly mean that, simply that I think it's unlikely (because it would be an unusual use of "en retrait") and that the suggested alternative seems very likely to me.
However, I still see nothing wrong with "the whites are excellent, if little reticent". This just means that they will presumably get even better as their aromas develop with age
In short, I think the idea that describing wines, as opposed to aspects of their flavour or nose (an important distinction), as "en retrait" means that they are reticent has almost zero documentary support, which, combined with the fact that it really does seem to me to refer to a slight fall in the quality rating, makes me feel that it would be unwise to interpret it like that. If French wine descriptions use "en retrait" to mean reticent, why can't I find examples when I peruse pages of results?
but we have to bear in mind that there are a good many more French tasting terms than there are English ones. Which means that there could well be more than one French translation for the English term "reticent". If you look at the definitions I found above, you'll see that they are in fact a pretty close match. Enough to convince me at any rate!
There are lots like that, as I've said. The "moelleux" is an element of the flavour. That's not the same as describing the wine itself as "en retrait".
The second example, "Plus en retrait", could be interpreted either way.
I've just done a search (should have done this first I think -- sorry!) through the document (some 50,000 words) and have found two other references: "En bouche, ils sont d'une attaque assez vive, avec un moelleux en retrait et une finale un peu sévère." and "Plus en retrait, les vins blancs se sont exprimés avec parcimonie nécessitant quelques années de patience avant de révéler leur identité." These seem to confirm Gallagy's idea I think.
I'm not talking about reticence in general, but only in relation to wine. It is a specific tasting term, and I'm now pretty convinced that this is also the use of "en retrait" here, having finally found one or two sites that seem to support this.
No problem at all finding examples of "en retrait" referring to something about the flavour or nose being "backward" or in the background; there are loads of examples. Rather less of it meaning reticent in general; I think Interpreterwhisky's example probably fits the bill but I haven's seen others and I think that would usually be "discret". So glossaries suggest. Personally I think it is very unlikely that "en retrait" means that here and I cannot see any reasonable objection to the quality-related interpretation; on the contrary, the context strongly points to it, since it's all about 1900 compared with 1899 and all about general levels of quality.
What distinguishes 1900 dry whites from other Bordeau is that the others are better than 1899 but the dry whites are not quite as good. That's what it's all about.
for all of your help, I've just read all of your comments with great interest! Although Charles's theory seemed quite plausible I’m inclined to agree with Carol that Gallagy's suggestion seems more likely here. I should just add that there are quite a few contradictory sentences in the French text, such as: "Une année assez moyenne, avec des vins rouges légers, fins et d'une grande élégance." Thanks again!
"puissance aromatique un peu en retrait". Not a définition as such, but the context does seem to conform with the "reticence" definition, above. I think I'm convinced!
I think "«C’est droit, légèrement en retrait, mais tellement fin.»" firmly rules out my suggestion regarding quantity. And, to be honest, it seems to point to Gallagy's suggestion. But before voting for this, I'd want to compare the respective definitions of "en retrait"(in the context of wine) and "reticent"
According to Wikipedia (OK, not necessarily the Oracle but perhaps a good starting point!), Reticent : A wine that is not exhibiting much aroma or bouquet characteristics perhaps due to its youth. It can be described as the sense that a wine is "holding back". ... This certainly seems to fit with a general sense of "en retrait". However, wine terms are so specific that they cannot be guessed at. Unfortunately, my searches for both vin and en retrait are still all throwing up sites connected with the wine market and production, which is not helping! What I'm looking for is a reliable definition in French of "en retrait" specifically in connection with wine! Failing that, I'd opt for "reticent", but also query it with the outsourcer just to be absolutely sure…
Gallagy's suggestion could be right, but I would want to see examples of "en retrait" meaning reticent in French texts before going that way. All I have seen in my own research is "en retrait" meaning that a certain element of the flavour is, as it were, in the background compared with other elements; I haven't seen it used as a decriptor for the flavour (or the nose) in general.
I will say, though, that "excellent but slightly inferior" does sound contradictory, because "inferior" is often used to mean "not very good", and I wouldn't put it like that. I suggested "not quite as good" in my comment on James's answer, and something along those lines (or "of a slightly lower standard") would probably make it clearer.
But I stick - albeit not exclusively - by my trusty Collins Robert. It's pretty good, and usually includes pretty much all of the possible meanings, with clear examples. But, if a particular use isn't included, then I'd certainly need to search further before assuming it doesn't exist at all. I hadn't found Charles's excellent reference, but even this is somewhat vague in how to actually interpret it. As far as I'm concerned, I'm yet to be totally convinced! If it is talking about quality, then Gallagy's suggestion seems a strong possibility
Excellent but slightly inferior makes perfect sense. If I get an A in an exam, that's excellent. But if I got an A+ last year, my mark this year is slightly inferior. If you like, you could say that excellent is slightly inferior to outstanding. Excellent doesn't mean as good as it can possibly be.
As I read it, "en retrait" refers only to the dry whites, not to the Sauternes. The following sentence about Sauternes is separate.
With great respect to Collins I would not regard it or any other dictionary as an exclusive and decisive authority. In any case, it is quite clear that "en retrait" can refer to yield, so the Collins entry is quite correct. The point is that yield is not the only thing it can refer to.
What I would add is if the question relates to Sauternes as the wording suggests, this is in fact classed as a "blanc liquoreux", so the rating actually went UP by 2 points in 1900, and not down!
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Answers
24 mins confidence:
To fall short
Explanation: The white wine being expected to be at the same level as the previous one, this one fell short (slightly short).
Naciye Otar Türkiye Local time: 18:56 Native speaker of: French, Turkish