wohlstandsstaatlichen

06:37 Aug 31, 2016 

I thank you all for the strong support. I know some of you will groan, but from my experience with this author and these texts, I have arrived at the following final translation:
We view these blocks from the horizon of our experience, from our common - universal - neo-progressive history, be it of the socialist variety, of the free-market capitalist US American variety or of the North European welfare state sort.

Happy translating!

22:07 Aug 30, 2016 

The German title of Kenneth Galbraith's book is: "Gesellschaft im Überfluss."

Yes, the term may work if the situation calls for it (e.g., as a substitute for "wealthy/rich"). That's a big if:
Neither Ramey's text (which would have you pit the US against "affluent nations"?), nor my examples (turning from welfare to affluence?) seem to fit the narrative.

It's the same kind of objection I have to "welfare state-driven prosperity," albeit from a different angle:
"A primary motivation for social legislation was the government's desire to erode support for socialism among workers and to establish the superiority of the Prussian state over the churches."
http://countrystudies.us/germany/112.htm

Whether or not an existing welfare system leads to prosperity shouldn't be part of the equation. As shown above, it hadn't even been a prominent factor for the establishment of the welfare system in the first place.

As said below, Wohlstandsstaat is typically used either as a synonym for "Wohlfahrtsstaat" (as Helen said), describes the social democratic model (as Ansgar suggested), or just means "rich/wealthy" - and possibly "affluent."

Best

20:55 Aug 30, 2016 

Dear All, what an interesting field & debate. Please consider 'affluent' - with all caution - I sense a useful overlap between the associations of welfare (with its contextual Health-&-Social-Security ingredient, suggesting 'acceptable minimum upwards) and socialised affluence, which suggests rather more. Remember 'Affluent Society'?

17:52 Aug 30, 2016 

I'm outta here. Will include the social democratic model in the glossary entry.
Good night!

17:35 Aug 30, 2016 

Ansgar had the right idea, I think. Straight from the BBC:
"The corporatist model is typical of continental Europe. It is work-oriented, being based on individual contributions.

The social democratic model is found mainly in Scandinavia, stresses universal values and is paid for by taxation.

And the liberal model found in the UK and US is based on a clear distinction between the deserving and undeserving poor, with limits on benefit payments potential workers."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4704081.stm

May that be an idea? Not sure about the references. Hope others will chime in. Don't want to be the one sucking all the oxygen out of the (virtual) room :)

PS: If not, don't worry about it. I usually add something like "See the discussion for more info" when closing a question. Have a relaxing evening!

17:25 Aug 30, 2016 

but I would need a clear alternative to add. Can you provide one? I cannot enter references into the glossary (can I?)

17:23 Aug 30, 2016 

I do that as well. But I have never seen someone point to a discussion post when referencing another ProZ entry (like when posting a reference).

If two options can be given for the glossary, why not use the opportunity before someone else posts the same question next time because "welfare state" cannot be used (as in the examples below)? Not about points here (since I haven't posted any answer).

17:15 Aug 30, 2016 

Any seekers kann click on the glossary entry and view this entire discussion. I do it all the time.

17:05 Aug 30, 2016 

[For glossary purposes]

Two examples:
"Diese Entwicklung führte ins Bewußtsein, daß der Wohlfahrtsstaat vom 'Wohlstandsstaat' zu unterscheiden ist"
https://books.google.de/books?id=WGjFhYKREdIC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA...

"vom 'Wohlstandsstaat' zum 'Wohlfahrtsstaat,' vom 'Etat gendarme' zum 'Etat providence'"
https://books.google.de/books?id=lCOYBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA133&lpg=P...

Distinguish welfare state from welfare state? Changed from welfare state to welfare state? Entirely non-sensical.

Thus, the glossary should at least offer two options to show that there are different interpretations of the word.

17:00 Aug 30, 2016 

We view the emergence of these blocks from the perspective of our common - universal - neo-progressive history, be it of the socialist variety, of the hardcore capitalist US American variety or of the North European welfare state sort.

16:53 Aug 30, 2016 

Back.

If you want to keep "welfare" in there somewhere and are worried people may not know about the Nordic model, you could also distinguish between "welfare capitalism" and "free-market capitalism."

"Welfare capitalism originated during the industrial revolution in 19th century Britain, when manufacturers began to offer benefits to their factory workers. Now, it's the mode of capitalism found in Northern and Continental Europe"
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/welfare-capitalism.asp

It may be a tad simplistic (since there are differences between Germany's and Norway's socio-economic situation, as Ansgar had also pointed out previously), but it could work.

PS: I don't like the author's use of "und" between "sozialistisch" and "hart-kapitalistisch." I think that should read "oder."

Update: You were quicker. Well, then use it.

16:52 Aug 30, 2016 

welfare state
ist voll ok
lieben gruss

16:03 Aug 30, 2016 

I don't know why the discussion focuses so much on "welfare." Socialism is a blend of economic and social systems; free-market capitalism is an economic system; welfare state is a "concept of government," as Britannica puts it. In my view, it shouldn't be in this list. What about "socio-economic policies prevalent in Scandinavia" or something similar (dinner time, maybe cu later here)?

15:55 Aug 30, 2016 

it would clarify things to translate the text simply with the "Nordic/Scandinavian welfare state." And at the moment I'm tending towards international English with British spelling.

15:50 Aug 30, 2016 

I'll gladly listen to any other suggestions :)

On a side note: At least over here, "free-market capitalism" would be enough, that's "hart-kapitalistisch" or "Raubtierkapitalismus," as some like to say. To paraphrase: You don't have to be hardcore to know what's hardcore!

15:49 Aug 30, 2016 

Es würde mich nicht wundern, wenn deine Autorin sagen würde, dass der Wohlstandsstaat das Wohlergehen seiner Bürger sowohl sichern wie steigern soll! It will be interesting to hear back from her, Ramey. I would also think that the Scandinavian welfare state (i.e., the "Nordic model") would/should constantly strive to improve everyone's level of prosperity, and not merely ensure a given standard of living. But perhaps this is all splitting hairs in terms of your translation. I don't think we need to invent a new word in English. The system in Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland exists and its accomplishments speak for themselves.

15:44 Aug 30, 2016 

The last bit should also disprove Paul's suggestion that the author simply confused something.

Unfortunately, I can't agree with Helen either, since it's not necessarily a synonym. There are too many documents out there describing how some country could turn from a "Wohlfahrtsstaat" into a "Wohlstandsstaat." One of these:
https://books.google.de/books?id=WoFgCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA56&lpg=PA...

One of the criteria should be "Staatsquote" (i.e., how much power the government has over your lives).

In a list, it'd most likely be: socialist, free-market capitalism, socialist democracy/Nordic model

Probably the latter, since the first option is too close to "Sozialismus." An article from the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/swedish-electi...

Bit more difficult in US English, since a lot of Americans seem to call Scandinavians "socialists" anyway.
https://iea.org.uk/blog/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism

15:44 Aug 30, 2016 

Don't be a party pooper :-)!

15:26 Aug 30, 2016 

https://books.google.de/books?id=7o19U3r6paIC&pg=PA144&lpg=P...

https://books.google.de/books?id=NHw9Oxj3uJQC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA...

And no, you do NOT have to invent a word. You just have to know what you're looking for. In this case: Transferring responsibility for someone's well-being from the family to the state, as is most evident in Scandinavia.

Here:
"The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism or Nordic social democracy) refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

15:24 Aug 30, 2016 

Das Wohlergehen soll nicht gesteigert, sondern gesichert werden - the stuff that my dreams are made of! Maybe we have to invent a word?

15:18 Aug 30, 2016 

To be exact, the author refers to a specific form of welfare state which is most common in Scandinavia. You might want to call it "social-democratic welfare state" - it has a more universal approach than the "Sozialstaat" in Germany and indeed sees a responsibility for some sort of wealth for all people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Three_worlds_of_...
and in German:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wohlfahrtsstaat#Klassifizierun...

15:17 Aug 30, 2016 

I think you will find this blog entry useful:
http://blogs.taz.de/wortistik/2011/01/10/wohlstandsstaat/

Excerpts:
"Wir kennen Wohlstandsgesellschaften (in denen es vielen bis allen gut bis zu gut geht) und Wohlfahrtsstaaten, die, so Wikipedia, 'weitreichende Maßnahmen zur Steigerung des sozialen, materiellen und kulturellen Wohlergehens' ihrer Bürger ergreifen. Der Begriff Wohlstandsstaat hingegen wird bislang nur extrem selten verwendet (weniger als ein Prozent der Google-Treffer für Wohlfahrtsstaat), und wenn, dann mit keiner anderen Bedeutung als der Begriff Wohlfahrtsstaat."

"Ich schlage hiermit eine andere Bedeutung vor. Ein Staat heiße Wohlstandsstaat, wenn er weitreichende Maßnahmen zur Sicherung des sozialen, materiellen und kulturellen Wohlergehens seiner Bürger ergreift.

Den Unterschied erkannt? Klar: Das Wohlergehen soll nicht gesteigert, sondern gesichert werden."

15:16 Aug 30, 2016 

I can say with 99% certainty that it is NOT an error, but an intentional use of the word. I've worked with her before. I've just sent off a query to the author and will get back as soon as I have something definite straight from the horse's mouth. I thought I could circumvent asking directly, as she is very busy, but sicher ist sicher.

15:04 Aug 30, 2016 

I think it's a synonym, not a mistake. Interesting that when one seeks a definition of Wohlstandsstaat on Google, it automatically diverts to Wohlfahrtsstaat. We don't, to my knowledge have a synonym in English for welfare state. This question might perhaps have been more usefully posted under social sciences.

14:57 Aug 30, 2016 

I'm going to ask my client and get back yo you on that, okay?

14:54 Aug 30, 2016 

Hi Ramey. I think there's a tendency to mix the concept of "Wohlfahrt" and the notion of "Wohlstand" for the simple reason that northern Europe, as pointed out by your author, is a very prosperous region that happens to serve as a shining example of the benefits and advantages of the welfare state.

14:48 Aug 30, 2016 

Thank you for the quick response! and the tiny difference between WohlSTAND und WohlFAHRT? I know that author chooses her words very carefully, so I have to ask....