die das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben dürfen

12:53 Jul 13, 2020 

Die Diskussion habe ich gelesen, bin aber nicht mit allem einverstanden. Und eine einheitliche Interpretation ist auch nicht zu sehen. Deshalb halte ich mich and die in Wikipedia angegebene Berechnung des Lebensalters nach BGB § 187(2) und wende sie 1 : 1 auf die Frage an.

Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch (BGB)
§ 187 Fristbeginn
(1) Ist für den Anfang einer Frist ein Ereignis oder ein in den Lauf eines Tages fallender Zeitpunkt maßgebend, so wird bei der Berechnung der Frist der Tag nicht mitgerechnet, in welchen das Ereignis oder der Zeitpunkt fällt.
(2) Ist der Beginn eines Tages der für den Anfang einer Frist maßgebende Zeitpunkt, so wird dieser Tag bei der Berechnung der Frist mitgerechnet. Das Gleiche gilt von dem Tage der Geburt bei der Berechnung des Lebensalters.
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__187.html

Das erste Lebensjahr beginnt mit der Gerburt. 365 Tage später wird der "Erste Geburtstag" gefeiert. Damit beginnt aber schon das zweite Lebensjahr. Genauso beim 35. Geburtstag. Damit beginnt das 36. Lebensjahr. Diese dürfen sich gemäß Klausel nicht mehr bewerben.

19:33 Jul 12, 2020 

Man kann den Sinn natürlich auch einfacher wiedergeben: "... dürfen nicht älter als 35 Jahre sein". Aber das ist eine zu starke Abweichung vom Quellsatz, als dass man diesen mit "must not be older than 35 years" übersetzen darf. Das Problem ist ja, den Sprachstil zu wahren.

07:16 Jul 12, 2020 

Good morning and thank you for the additional information. In this case, the wording "die das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben dürfen" in Jo's sentence is plain wrong (35 should be replaced with 36 and, ideally, "überschritten" with "vollendet"). Translator's note necessary, as pointed out before.

21:34 Jul 11, 2020 

After being able to take a second look at it, I think you should take the following into account:

1) Thomas' link (which I found too) says "die nach dem 03.10.1985 geboren wurden"
2) Jo's link says that Anmeldeschluss is on "30.04.2021"

-> Let's say you were born on Nov 3, 1985 and apply on March 3, 2021. You'll be 35.

3) Sadly, I can't post the link without revealing too much, but if you google for the phrase Thomas found and then click on the leaflet, it'll say "Altersgrenze: 35 Jahre." [included in Thomas' answer]

Now, that usually really means you can be 35, too, e.g.: https://www.altersdiskriminierung.de/themen/artikel.php?id=3...

This is one of those language quirks like "Bernd hat viermal mehr Zucker als Dieter."

Many Germans (speaking from experience) will take it to mean Bernd has four times as much sugar as Dieter. However, strictly speaking, this should mean Bernd has five times as much.

And what gets me every single time is when someone writes "A hat viermal weniger als B" because that's just impossible.

Best

21:24 Jul 11, 2020 

as usually it would end with 'vollendet'. So, for that reason, I'd ask the client to confirm. If you get it wrong, it's pretty bad.
An age limit 35 would be logical, but actually I read it as 36 as well, but that sounds strange.

19:18 Jul 11, 2020 

our capacity for explanations, I'd say. When I have vollendet my 60th Lebensjahr, I have just turned 60. Native speaker's understanding.

17:27 Jul 11, 2020 

... Irrungen und Wirrungen, I'd say.

17:04 Jul 11, 2020 

Deutsche Sprache, logische Sprache

16:58 Jul 11, 2020 

My answer would be an exclamatory "Noooo!" because the (erroneous but frequent) German "erreicht" is misleading and should actually read "vollendet". Strictly speaking, "erreicht" would mean in this example that the patient has passed his/her 17th (rather than 18th) birthday.

16:33 Jul 11, 2020 

It gets even worse when you substitute erreicht for überschritten: https://www.linguee.com/german-english/translation/das leben...
Der Patient muss mindestens das 18. Lebensjahr erreicht haben translated as The patient must be at least 18 years old
Any comments, dear GNS?

16:30 Jul 11, 2020 

I agree and it's all the more reason to ask the client.

16:28 Jul 11, 2020 

... and the client might then even notice that their draft is "deficient".

16:28 Jul 11, 2020 

A-ha, now I see where you are coming from - thanks for clarifying.

15:58 Jul 11, 2020 

It would be a shame if the English version isn't correct.

15:46 Jul 11, 2020 

EN: age only (i.e. point in time)
DE: Lebensjahr (i.e. period/length of time)
Hence the problem encountered and posed by today's asker.

15:42 Jul 11, 2020 

I don't see a cultural difference at work here.

15:27 Jul 11, 2020 

= I've had my 35th birthday but not yet my 36th. I'm wondering if this is a cultural difference?

15:25 Jul 11, 2020 

As a GNS, it would never occur to me to claim "I am 35" before my 35th birthday (on any day before this day, I'd still be 34 (and so and so many days, if you will)). Andrew, this "popular perception" you are referring to is completely alien to me.

14:59 Jul 11, 2020 

As an ENS, I am wondering whether there is a discrepancy in the German phrasing between what is mathematically indisputable (namely the 35th year of life ends on the 35th birthday) and a popular perception that the 35th Lebensjahr is the 365-day period during which you can tell people “I am 35”. We have two esteemed native speakers as proponents of the two interpretations. Definitely a case for a translator’s note.

14:43 Jul 11, 2020 

You can take my word for it ;-))

14:40 Jul 11, 2020 

No, Björn. "Überschritten" may sound odd in this case (I agree with you in respect of the phrasing), but this would basically mean that they have already entered their "36. Lebensjahr" (passed their 35th birthday). Question is whether the 35th birthday itself is included in the "Überschreitung" or not. Splitting hairs, as it were ;-) (and a classic case for a translator's note).

14:36 Jul 11, 2020 

Not saying I couldn’t be wrong about this. I’m just saying it’s a bad way to state application requirements. There are surely easier ways to say this.

Best

14:25 Jul 11, 2020 

I don‘t see it this way because I think the phrasing is off. Use 18, not 35; maybe that’ll make it clearer. Had they said people who haven’t vollendet their 18. Lebensjahr (typical phrasing), then they aren’t volljährig yet. Fully agree. But saying they haven’t überschritten it, means to me they aren’t 19 yet. I think it’s badly worded. I did read the d-box entries. Somehow not convinced considering past experience.

Best

14:04 Jul 11, 2020 

hahahahahahahahahaha! Word people!

13:56 Jul 11, 2020 

You seem to be on the wrong track here because the "35. Lebensjahr" ends on the 35th birthday. Applicants can't be 35 yet according to Jo's context. See also the earlier discussion entries.

13:25 Jul 11, 2020 

I am now happy that the 35th Lebensjahr / year of life is the one leading up to the 35th birthday. So I think I am clear that on the day of their 35th birthday a competitor is too old to enter the competition. Whereas on the day before their 35th birthday a competitor is eligible because on that day he/she is still 34 years old. I think I am going to go with: "The deadline for applications from candidates, who should not yet have reached their 35th birthday, is ..." But I also take the point that it may be better to split the sentence in two. Thank you. I am constantly amazed at and grateful for the enthusiasm with which ProZ members provide help, ideas and suggestions. :-)

13:17 Jul 11, 2020 

On phone, so no long comment. But means to me they can’t be 36 yet, that is, if you think years only, not days. Intriguing.

Best

13:04 Jul 11, 2020 

Yes, I think that's it. I would need 35 (or 36?) fingers to confirm beyond any doubt but I think that's it ;-)

13:01 Jul 11, 2020 

Thomas, I am getting confused as well now. If I follow your logic starting with the first year, I get:

Das erste Lebensjahr (beginnt mit der Geburt und) endet mit dem 1. Geburtstag. (Also: Der Geburtstag jährt sich zum ersten Mal.)
Das zweite Lebensjahr endet mit dem 2. Geburtstag.
Das dritte Lebensjahr endet mit dem 3. Geburtstag.

Continue this series, and you get:
Das 35. Lebensjahr endet mit dem 35. Geburtstag.

Or not?

12:55 Jul 11, 2020 

That's the same in any language. (It always confuses me as well and to get my head around it I always think of the 'erste Lebensjahr' - which is from birth to the first birthday.)

(Also see what I posted as reference – they phrased it in a few different ways, including the exact earliest possible date of birth.

12:55 Jul 11, 2020 

The Lebensjahr is the twelve-month period leading up to the respective birthday. In other words, the "35. Lebensjahr" ends on the 35th birthday, as pointed out by Andrew already.

12:38 Jul 11, 2020 

Thanks for that, Thomas. The conceptual problem is whether a German Lebensjahr is a birthday or a twelve-month period. I think the asker would like a definitive ruling from a native speaker. For an English reader, a 'year of life' lasts a full 365 days. The 35th year of life ends on the 35th birthday. It is a similar conundrum to counting fence panels and fence posts.

12:31 Jul 11, 2020 

The 'dürfen' just states that this a requirement – 'Sie dürfen das 35. Lebensjahr noch nicht überschritten haben'.

12:24 Jul 11, 2020 

Thomas, is this redundant or does it bring some sort of added value?

11:26 Jul 11, 2020 

I always have to think twice or thrice here, numbers don't like me. But I'm quite certain it's 35 and younger. If they've passed their 35th birthday, then they are 36.