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sich tot siegen

English translation: win themselves to death

09:44 Feb 1, 2010
German to English translations [PRO]
History
German term or phrase: sich tot siegen
I am translating a Dutch text which contains this German term, and I don't speak German. The sentence (English version):

"The Germans had a saying for that in World War II: sich tot siegen."

This occurs in a passage about one company suing another with the intent to put it out of business, using underhanded means and legal intimidation.
Grayson Morr (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 17:07
English translation:win themselves to death
Explanation:
"Pyrrhic victory" is fine, but your passage calls for an expression that *does not sound English*. Note that you are asked to give a German expression translated literally into English.

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Note added at 14 hrs (2010-02-02 00:43:45 GMT)
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...especially if you then give the English equivalent in square brackets, you have to use a literal version, as long as it's comprehensible on some level.
Selected response from:

Jim Tucker (X)
United States
Grading comment
This best fits my author's intended meaning - many thanks! For future viewers: I imagine 'Pyrrhic victory' would be the best choice in many contexts.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +6win a Pyrrhic victory
Steven Sidore
4 +2to win, or die trying
Mike Alizade
4 +1win themselves to death
Jim Tucker (X)
3to win even if it means dying in the attempt
British Diana


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


30 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +6
win a Pyrrhic victory


Explanation:
I understand this phrase a bit differently. It literally means "to win oneself to death" -- exhausting all resources to win such that you yourself go down as well.

Good English: to win a Pyrrhic victor.
Somewhat more colloquial: to cut off one's nose to spite your face.

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Note added at 1 hr (2010-02-01 11:33:31 GMT)
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oops Pyrrhic victory (!)

Steven Sidore
Germany
Local time: 17:07
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 7
Notes to answerer
Asker: Steven, many thanks. I think this is in many contexts the best translation (certainly in translating a German document into English), but the more literal version suggested below fit my author's intent in this particular passage more closely. Note to future viewers: this may be the better fit for you!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Annett Kottek (X): They have to win at all costs, even if that means going under in the process.
4 mins
agree  franglish
53 mins
agree  Ingeborg Gowans (X): my first thought
1 hr
agree  Rebecca Garber
3 hrs
agree  jccantrell: My first thought, too.
5 hrs
agree  Nicole Backhaus
11 hrs
neutral  Jim Tucker (X): I agree 100%. This is a good translation. But it won't help the translator here, as the task is to reproduce the odd and expressive aspect of the German version. You're not going to be able to explain how "Pyrrhic victory" is a neat German expression.
14 hrs
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
to win, or die trying


Explanation:
Pyrrhic victory doesn't convey 'tot' to me - i thought this was closer to the meaning

Mike Alizade
Local time: 16:07
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Notes to answerer
Asker: Mike, thanks - this comes close to what I needed, but Jim's suggestion was the best fit, all things considered.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Helen Shiner: Yes, last man standing stuff
2 hrs
agree  Anne-Marie Grant (X)
7 hrs
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
to win even if it means dying in the attempt


Explanation:
This may not sound short and pithy enough, but I don't think ordinary Germans used the term "Pyrrhic victory".
There has to be "siegen" and "tot" involved and a kind of resignation (or bitter irony, depending on how the people felt about the situation).
In order for this saying to have relevancxe to the source, the text would have to go on to explain how the company involved badly harmed itself in the process. Does it?

British Diana
Germany
Local time: 17:07
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: Diana, thanks. Jim gave me exactly what I needed - the author's company was indeed "winning itself to death."

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14 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
win themselves to death


Explanation:
"Pyrrhic victory" is fine, but your passage calls for an expression that *does not sound English*. Note that you are asked to give a German expression translated literally into English.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2010-02-02 00:43:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

...especially if you then give the English equivalent in square brackets, you have to use a literal version, as long as it's comprehensible on some level.

Jim Tucker (X)
United States
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
This best fits my author's intended meaning - many thanks! For future viewers: I imagine 'Pyrrhic victory' would be the best choice in many contexts.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Elisabeth Kissel: I, too, think that Pyrrhic victory would technically be the correct expression, however, your point above really makes sense. You've also included the keywords (as Diana points out) and so my vote is for this one.
7 hrs
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