Zeugwart

12:49 Oct 3, 2014 

Found some old British references, which I hope you can make more sense of than me. Maybe you could read it by using the following paragraph as a reference:
"Zeug ist der mittelalterliche Ausdruck für eine Rüstung, später für Geschütze mit ihrem Zubehör.
Abstammende Begriffe sind:
- Feldzeugmeister oder Generalfeldzeugmeister, Oberbefehlshaber der Artillerie
- Zeughaus
- Zeugfeldwebel
- Zeugkapitän, Verwalter und Verantwortlicher eines Zeughauses
- Zeugmeister, Artillerie-Offizier oder Zeughaus-Vorsteher
- Zeugoffizier, aus den Zeugfeldwebeln hervorgehender Verwaltungsoffizier
- Zeugwart, Diener oder Aufseher im Zeughaus"
http://www.cyclopaedia.de/wiki/Zeug-(Militaertechnik)

First off, what's with the Office of Ordnance?
http://www.royalarmouries.org/tower-of-london/power-house/in...

Second:
http://books.google.de/books?id=xVJXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA494&lpg=PA...

+

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=85367

Thx!

13:37 Oct 2, 2014 

... is in the hunt, not in the kill.

12:30 Oct 2, 2014 

:) The part that did not make me chuckle was the rant about missing dictionary/glossary entries when, in fact, some explanation of the term had already been given here. I'd would have gladly tried to figure out together with the asker and the other contributors to this question what the term actually describes in both languages and if there is an equivalent at all.

It makes me somewhat chuckle again that we are now getting somewhere in answering the question when an answer has already been selected.

12:22 Oct 2, 2014 

The aspect of this Q that makes me chuckle is that the asker ended up selecting his own proposal - but then awarded it only a single point.

12:15 Oct 2, 2014 

Found the link for the Yeomen - that's probably not what I meant. Not guarding as in general guard duty, but arranging and giving out weaponry from, as well as guarding the arsenal. No repair (not his job, that's the Büchsenmacher's).

Just making sure everything's in order, at the right place, and available. Nothing's missing, nothing's broken (so it has to be taken somewhere for repair). Does that help, Andrew?

12:05 Oct 2, 2014 

See first answer in at 9 mins

11:59 Oct 2, 2014 

Thus, combined with what I posted as links about the old Zeugwart below, there is no justification in my view to assign any other tasks to a Zeugwart than guard duty and supervision.

Quite simple: Zeugwart = Wächter über das Zeug (Gerät)

That actually means your warders are a very interesting option to consider.

11:57 Oct 2, 2014 

"Einen Zeugwart hat jeder größere Club. Der kümmert sich dann um alles, was Spieler und Trainer zum Training oder beim Spiel brauchen.
Bei den ganz Großen sorgen sie sogar dafür, dass die Fußballschuhe der Spieler geputzt werden."
http://www.fd21.de/15259.asp

See also:
http://www.zeit.de/karriere/beruf/2010-06/beruf-zeugwart

The Zeugwart in soccer doesn't repair anything, really. What should he repair?

The same is true for firefighters:
"Der Zeugwart ist für den ordentlichen Zustand der gesamten technischen Ausrüstung der Freiwilligen Feuerwehr Loitsche verantwortlich. Er führt die Inventarliste.
Der Zeugwart überwacht alle notwendigen Überwachungen und Prüfungen und führt die schriftlichen Nachweise. Er berichtet auf Anforderung, in wichtigen Angelegenheiten aus eigenem Antrieb, dem Gemeindewehrleiter.
Der Zeugwart kontrolliert die persönliche Ausrüstung der aktiven Kameraden und hält diese zu einem sorgsamen und pfleglichen Umgang an.
Der Zeugwart sorgt für die rechtzeitige Ersatzbeschaffung von Geräten und Ausrüstungen und stellt die entsprechende Zuarbeit für die Haushaltsplanung zusammen."
http://dojuo.de/gemeinde/doc/satzung_ffw.htm

11:42 Oct 2, 2014 

The Wartung (maintenance and repair/Instandhaltung) of the weapons (or the kit of a football team or the equipment of a fire fighting team) is an integral aspect of the work of a Zeugwart - today, as in the dim and distant past.

What you describe would be a Wärter (a warder of the arms) - the guards at the Tower of London are still called Yeoman Warders/Yeomen of the Guard.

They would indeed guard the weapons, but would not necessarily have anything to do with their construction, repair, maintenance or distribution to men at arms.

09:31 Oct 2, 2014 

I think the -wart in Zeugwart does not refer to "warten" as in "maintain" but to "warten / "Wärter"/ "Warte" / "wachen" as in "guarding". See also:

"cajbert: praefectus armentarii (NySz.); nhd. zeugwart: aufseher im zeughaus (Sanders)"
http://archive.org/stream/deutscheortsname00lumtuoft/deutsch...

There was also a Holzwart, apparently, who guarded the woods, and there is still today the "Kassenwart" - with the same guarding/management function that has little to do with maintaining something.

You can see that here too:
warten = "'sehen, schauen, betrachten, achten, beobachten, behüten, sich hüten, abwarten' / 'sich kümmern um; Ausschau halten nach einem künftigen Ereignis'"
http://www.heinrich-tischner.de/22-sp/2wo/wort/idg/deutsch/w...

I think that's why sinolig said "manager" in his question.

I also found a book saying there is still the "Zeugmeister", the highest position in a Zeughaus. In fact, that must be resembling the keeper of the arms or the Master of the Armoury then. Zeugwart is just a subordinate, someone who worked there and a bit like the quartermaster that Theo referred to.

09:14 Oct 2, 2014 

It is interesting that the asker mentions "working at the armoury" rather than "in charge of" the same.

Similar to your gunsmiths, all kinds of weaponsmiths/Waffenschmiede - swordsmiths, fletchers (arrow-makers), bowyers would work in an armoury - in modern-day terms, these would be the "Maintenance and Repair Team/Wartungsmannschaft" (where we again find "Wart-") under a master armourer.

The question is, who is the boss? The keeper of the arms - in an administrative function?

08:53 Oct 2, 2014 

Ah, I apologize, then I misunderstood :)

And thank you for your reply! I disagreed with keeper of the arms because I am not sure there are "keepers of the arms"? When you look at my Zeugherr entry below, you see that there is a Zeugherr and maybe some Unterzeugherren, and then there are the other subordinates, the Zeugwarte. To me, that means a Zeugwart is more like an administrative job. Büchsenmacher, on the other hand, means (at least, nowadays):
"Büchsenmacher/innen befassen sich mit der Herstellung, Revision und Reparatur von Hand- und Faustfeuerwaffen. Gelegentlich restaurieren sie auch historische Waffen."
http://www.berufsberatung.ch/dyn/1199.aspx?id=3657

So, it seems that an armourer can be both occupations in one if I understand it correctly?

And I guess we agree that "Master of" is not very apt here - that's too much of a title for me.

07:55 Oct 2, 2014 

I was confirming, not limiting - Volunteer fire brigades have both.

I still think "keeper of the arms" is the best solution for the Middle Ages and armourer for more modern contexts. At a museum, it would probably be best to state both, with armourer in brackets.

BTW: on US submarines, the officer in charge of firearms and distributing them in critical situations is an armourer.

07:42 Oct 2, 2014 

The Duden entry only says "besonders Sport", not exclusively, and Geräte can mean many things. Duden's Zeughaus entry, on the other hand, is quite clear and that is what sinolig was asking for.

Like I said: I was trying to decide whether to go with your suggestion or Andrew's. As far as I could look it up, armo(u)rer is a more recent term.

Sadly, nobody has answered my question whether there is only one Master of the Armoury. In this case, the term would be wrong, I believe.

07:35 Oct 2, 2014 

Yes - every football team in Germany has one.

06:58 Oct 2, 2014 

"Why can't one German dictionary or glossary include the word Zeughaus?"

Did you read my discussion entries below? I quoted from an encyclopedia, and a Swiss one at that. Even the German Duden has it:
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Zeughaus
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Zeugwart

That a dictionary would not include a UK term that seems specific to royal armouries should be obvious, considering Switzerland's William Tell story.

13:58 Sep 30, 2014 

Entry on Zeugherr:
"Verantwortl. Aufseher über die schweren, v.a. in Zeughäusern gelagerten Kriegsgeräte samt Munition sowie über die Zeugwarte und Büchsenmacher. Dem Z.n oblag auch die Überwachung des Pulverregals. Das Amt setzte sich mit dem Ausbau der Artillerie im 17. Jh. vom älteren Bauherrenamt ab und fand sich in Städte- wie Länderorten. Je nach Grösse des Herrschaftsgebiets unterstanden dem Ober- oder Landeszeugherrn weitere Unterzeugherren."

Thus, I'm somewhat torn between Andrew's and Yorkshireman's suggestion, although I disagree with Keeper of the Arms.

A "Zeugwart" seems to be a subordinate, but isn't there only one Master of the Armoury? Something can't be right here.

13:54 Sep 30, 2014 

I think Horst makes a good point.

May I point out to my friendly neighbors from across the Channel that it's a bit odd comparing Switzerland's Zeughaus with a royal armoury?

Or did you forget this story:
http://www.amazon.com/William-Tell-Margaret-Early/dp/0810938...

On a side note, however, Zeug doesn't mean Tuch or stuff, it means "equipment".

Historisches Lexikon der Schweiz:
"Der Begriff Zeughaus (Zeug = Geräte) taucht in der frühen Neuzeit als Bezeichnung für den neuen Gebäudetypus des Waffenspeichers auf. [...]Die Konstruktion der Z. war jener der Kornhäuser verwandt. In einzelnen Fällen dienten sie beiden Aufgaben, z.B. in Basel und Genf, andernorts wurden Kornhäuser nachträglich in Z. umgewandelt, z.B. in Zürich, Bern und Luzern. Im Zeughaus fanden Beschaffung, Lagerung, Unterhalt, Bereitstellung und Ersatz von Kriegsmaterial statt. Die Aufsicht oblag dem Zeugherrn. Volle Z. bedeuteten militär. Schlagkraft, Abschreckung und Macht. Z. verkörperten das Prestige des Staats und waren im weitesten Sinne auch Museen, in denen Trophäen an die glorreiche militär. Vergangenheit erinnerten[...]"
http://mobile.hls-dhs-dss.ch/m.php?article=D8600.php

22:19 Sep 29, 2014 

Good on thee, mi lad, It’s allus grand ti fahnd owt weer summat cums fra.
Mebbe it wor't "'elmets, atchits, spears 'n bowsenarrers bloke" wot kept is ee ont feightin' tackle.

21:51 Sep 29, 2014 

Try this for etymology: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=toy

21:35 Sep 29, 2014 

...Zaumzeug - in which one clearly can see the roots of the English word "tack" for the accoutrements for horses The bloke in charge would then be, literally a "tack warder" (which is pure invention)

BTW:
Another name for the "officer" in charge of arms and armour, and their distribution to the troops in times of war, was "keeper of the arms" - see the addition to my answer for the details.

19:15 Sep 29, 2014 

the very generic word "Zeug" is customarily narrowed from just any "stuff" to a certain type of fabric (similarly to the word "Stoff"), and to military gear. Just parsing the words would leave us with something like "warden of the gear".