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German to English translations [PRO] Social Sciences - History / Post-war situations
German term or phrase:Hamsterkäufen
I know this word is "panic buying" or "hoarding," but in an article on the aftermath of WW2 reference was made to a famine in Austria, with "Hamsterkäufen bei den Bauern." Does this mean that "the farmers were hoarding their produce" or that "citizens were buying up everything from farmers that they could"? Or does anyone have a better alternative?
This discussion has been most revealing and insightful but neither Hamsterkäufe nor panic buying is limited in their applicability to specific historical circumstances. Hamsterkäufe is panic buying no matter where or when it happened…So far, I haven’t seen any solid evidence that would refute that. http://de.thefreedictionary.com/hamsterkäufe
@beermatt: Your unprovoked rant made it abundantly clear who’s doing the blabbering. Sweeping statements on groups of people are always a red flag for clouded judgment. Even more revealing is when those doing the ranting don’t even know who belongs or doesn’t belong in the group they’re ranting about.
I’ll be sure to put that in my little memo book. Perhaps, Germans rarely feel the need to buy anything in a panic. Instead, they’ll just clean out the shelves with ruthless efficiency… But stereotypes aside – you put your finger on a valid point. There’s a distinct difference between people stampeding the stores on a Black Friday and people buying because they’re desperate for food. Unfortunately, Hamsterkäufe doesn’t make that distinction so that’s another reason why I’ll stick with panic buying in Andrew’s context. As for Black Friday shopping sprees, I’d probably go for something like “greedy shopping” or the like, certainly not panic buying.
No matter, closed now. See, Michael, everything worked out. I'll stick to my disagreement, since we just did a Hamsterkauf and not Panikkauf yesterday, but this is more of a note for the next translator looking for the term.
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Yes, I know it's both a noun and a verb
07:27 Dec 8, 2015
but in fluent English, we would nearly ALWAYS opt for the verb form. And yes, it did effect thousands, but they didn't DIE. They suffered, and some died - and for heaven's sake people, I'm not trying to detract from their suffering - I'm just trying to SAVE MY LANGUAGE.
Barter is both a verb and a noun ("trade by the exchange of goods"). http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/barter. And I would maintain that the situation in post-war Austria was also a "far cry" from food shortage. How many people did it effect? Thousands, maybe? ☺
buying or obtaining with barter. Barter is a verb and really enjoys being used as one = bartering (goods/valuables) for food
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Famine is a far cry
17:38 Dec 7, 2015
from food shortage. In a famine people starve by the thousands (Ethiopa back then). Calling a famine 'a shortage of anything' is like calling A-Tests a minor explosion. SAVE MY LANGUAGE!
It was basically a direct response to your comment you made to Lancashireman's answer: "Your term, along with others, lacks the sense of urgency inherent in Hamsterkäufe. The discussion has not helped very much to sort that out."
As I tried to explain below, there is no urgency inherent in the term - in contrast to "Panikkauf," which was not asked here.
On a side note, I do think I was polite and focused on the topic, though. Just because I disagree does not mean that Andrew isn't free in his decision to select an answer based on what he believes works best here.
Same reason why I cannot reply to writeaway's comment, since it will only let me view the first 16 pages of the book in question, and these pages do not tell me whether the authors were really focused on "purchases" when it comes to Hamsterkäufe (as other Vienna references do not).
A simple obtain or get may really be enough. I'd hope Andrew keeps us updated.
I have no intention of getting hung up on what people’s state of mind is when they buy whatever they can. If people insist that a sense of panic is not really what this expression is about – fine. I just have never heard of anybody expressing the concept in ways other than panic buying in English. This may not be surgically precise as a rendering but I have no trouble favoring an established term that’s widely understood rather than minting a new term that’s 100 percent accurate but looks like a footnote.
Wow! I had no idea this would spark this kind of debate. Thanks to all who have contributed. I think I am going to try and incorporate "buying or obtaining with barter" into my translation. As to the term "famine," according to Collins it doesn't have to be a food shortage due to natural causes - it can also mean "violent hunger" (or, actually, a shortage of anything:) http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/famine
Your reference to rationing does not work since it was the other way around - first panic buying, then rationing; here, food has already been rationed.
That's also the point where I have another set of difficulties when trying to relate it to panic buying. Not only does the word Panikkauf exist in German (http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Panikkauf ), but the Hamsterkäufe we are talking about here are done pretty regularly. They are more like Thomas's "trip" than any rush onto farmer fields (Daniel's explanation is further proof of that; can't disagree on this comment though).
And I still have my issues with "buying" because I believe it is not meant that restrictive in German, but that's for Andrew to decide and wasn't the main point right now.
As I will comment on your answer, I was tempted to leave it at neutral, but your remarks about the other suggestion made clear to me that this doesn't match the source.
The German reference dictionary you cite is published by an American company that manages databases. As with LEO, this usually doesn't work out well.
Neither the Duden, nor the DWDS talk about "panikartig."
Duden: Einkauf großer Mengen von Waren des täglichen Bedarfs, besonders von Lebensmitteln, zur Schaffung eines Vorrats, um von eventueller Verknappung oder Verteuerung dieser Waren unabhängig zu sein http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Hamsterkauf
If it actually were only "panikartig," the adjective in the following sentence bit from the DWDS would be superfluous: große, überstürzte Hamsterkäufe http://www.dwds.de/?qu=hamsterkauf
In my own experience, it doesn't have to be "panikartig" either. If I see a discount on Pepsi bottles (I'm addicted, I admit it), I could buy up to 4 or 5 packs of six bottles. That'd be a Hamsterkauf because I stockpile, but I'm certainly not panicky.
is so strange about city folk going out "hustling" for food in the countryside when the distribution of food had broken down (as well as the currency), more acutely just at the end of the war than during. The Hamsterer were a nuisance, but "beleaguering" is a bit much. Ramey's list is part of the description. But still that was the situation then, and a bit of empathy might not be out of place. What goes on in the way of panic-buying or hoarding nowadays is a totally different thing. Maybe historical amnesia should not be mistaken for "being with it".
Thus, as I assumed further below (with Hamsterkauf = Hamsterfahrt), "Hamsterkäufe" seems to be something the author thought of, but did not mean literally in the way we understand "Kauf" today. Sometimes, you just use a word in your language which everyone knows because the image connected to it is what counts.
Not quite sure what beermatt's issue is right now. I assume I posted the relevant context further below, Ramey provided one side of the meaning, and Lancashireman provided the other by pointing out that food was in short supply. Because of several references added (the reference to "Erntereste einsammeln" is from Vienna, the place this is about!), I am just not comfortable with buying and was asking for a more "neutral" term, as in "sich Vorräte von den Bauern beschaffen." Still trying to figure out what was wrong with get; I'd be glad if someone were to point me in the right direction.
All the speculation about bartering is very interesting, but that's not what the author wrote (proz.com - the *translation* workplace)
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
In view of this discussion
09:59 Dec 6, 2015
Here are some other suggestions: 1. besieged/hounded/beleaguered local farmers (for their products) 2. bartered their lives/heritage/valuables away for farmer's produce 3.made regular pilgrimages to outlying farmers to snatch up whatever produce was available
AndrewH712, to clarify the matter, maybe you cold supply quite a lot more background, i.e. what the job is about and/or some paragraphs of the text?
Horst Huber (X)
United States
Good grief! Seems to me
05:02 Dec 6, 2015
the asker is not sure whether he is dealing with the present world or with 1945. If the latter, the answers offered so far are anachronistic. Björn's references corroborate my rather close memories. The "Hamster"-phenomenon also must be distinguished from black-market activities. But if the question goes to Black Friday type madness the word "Hamsterkäufe" has simply acquired a new meaning. Anyhow. most people alive now would not have a direct appreciation of the situation in the areas affected by World War II.
that either the author of your text is not quite aware of the meaning of "Hamsterkäufe", i.e. worried masses storming shops and buying everything available, possibly leading to clashes
-- or that starving Austrians in the post-war era made such a massive run in huge numbers on still-producing farmers that one might be tempted to use "Hamsterkäufe" because they were totally unable to meet the demand of thousands of people...
The food shortages in the city were caused by problems of distribution. The fact that food could still be bought in the countryside (i.e. not a drought or other natural cause of crop failure) makes 'famine' inappropriate in the context. http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/famine
"Maria hatte Glück. Sie ergatterte 15 kg Kartoffel und 1 l Magermilch. Dann wurde sie von dem Bauern gebeten, 2 geschlachtete Katzen in einer Milchkanne, für einen Bekannten nach Innsbruck, mitzunehmen." http://www.erinnern.at/bundeslaender/tirol/unterrichtsmateri...
"Städter konnten nur durch 'Hamsterfahrten' zu den Bauern genügend Lebensmittel zur Ernährung der Familien ergattern. Durch diesen Tauschhandel kamen manche bürgerliche Erbstücke in bäuerliche Haushalte." https://www.vorarlberg.at/pdf/26volaucnik_feldkirch1945.pdf
I did say slightly modified, since mine was only an idea. I don't believe "buying" is really the right word here (see below), although hoarding may be too much. It's more like an attempt at hoarding, since there wasn't much to get, but the little you could get you tried to save up. Agree with your 1 and 3. Just thought "get" would be more appropriate.
And yes, I was focused on the US too. Already thought about "tram," so "street" wouldn't be used twice in the sentence.
Die Ernährungssituation war kurz nach dem Krieg, aber auch noch in den ersten Jahren der Besatzung, sehr schlecht. Die Menschen hatten Hunger und die Versorgung mit Lebensmitteln reichte in der Stadt nicht aus. Deshalb fuhren viele Leute mit der Eisenbahn zu den Bauern aufs Land und tauschten ihre kostbarsten Sachen wie Schmuck - sofern sie noch Kostbares besaßen - gegen lebenswichtiges Essen ein. Kartoffeln, Eier oder Speck waren wertvoller als edle Perlen. Viele der Züge waren überfüllt, hielten aber keinen davon ab, in Richtung Land aufzubrechen, in der Hoffnung hier etwas zum Essen zu ergattern.
So fuhren Tausende von Menschen aufs Land und schleppten Kartoffeln zurück in die Stadt. Nicht selten durchwühlten die Leute bereits abgeerntete Äcker nach vergessenen Kartoffeln. Manche halfen den Bauern bei der Ernte und wurden mit Nahrung bezahlt, um diese nach Hause zu ihren Familien zu bringen, damit sie nicht verhungerten. http://www.grochowiak.de/lang/kriegsende1945/bilder/Kriegsen...
Please post "made people stockpile the food they could get". I should like to critique this in the form of a neutral. On a separate point, although the asker is located in the USA, there is no reason to believe that he would wish to exclude a wider readership with the use of 'streetcar' instead of 'tram'.
Just another version, but with slight modifications to the source:
The infrastructure had collapsed: Streetcars were a rare sight - if they ever showed up - as the rubble had to be cleared off the streets. Catching a train was not an easy task either. The spreading famine made people stockpile the food they could get from local farmers. They were freezing in the harsh winter air, as they had no warm clothes and no means to heat their home - if there still was one left. Seventy-six thousand homes had been turned to dust; another one-hundred thousand became partly uninhabitable.
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
@Andrew
08:17 Dec 5, 2015
Of course! I misread that bit! .....homes were completely destroyed, ...only partially inhabitable.
Immediately after the war, money was rather worthless in Germany and Austria - therefore farmers were not prepared to hand over produce for money, a barter trade started (e,g, your silver bowl for two pounds of potatoes). The situation only improved after the "Währungsreform". For Austria see: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Währungsreformen_in_Österreich
Sanni Kruger (X)
United Kingdom
barter valuables and cigarettes for food
05:02 Dec 5, 2015
My suggestion would be something like "people went into the countryside to barter valuables and cigarettes for food from the farmers." I, too, remember my parents' generation talking about doing that. And also that cigarettes had pretty much replaced legal tender as currency, certainly in the black market, which was thriving back then.
Horst Huber (X)
United States
Memory might help,
23:49 Dec 4, 2015
for once. In the early years after the end of WWII, my mother, alternatively my father, had to go out "hamstern". The point is, food was not in the stores, which in those days were small grocery stores (no supermarkets). So my parents, on weekends, would get themselves on a crowded train to the countryside (and having spent several years as evacuees they were acquainted with a specific area), go on foot from farm to farm and ask what they might be willing to sell. Money was not always "legal tender", some of this was bartering, maybe trade in a watch or a piece of jewelry, maybe cigarettes (I don't recall what my parents might have been able to offer). Some farmers were compassionate, some more inclined to drive a hard bargain. And whatever it was, potatoes, maybe some butter or eggs, had to be carried back home. So something like "door to door hustling" would be my description.
Ramey, shouldn't that be "76,000 homes were FULLY, 100,000 PARTIALLY destroyed?" Ganz as an adverb here?
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
@Björn
18:14 Dec 4, 2015
Actually, it would. Thanks! IT's more of a list than a flowing text. a possible translation, I believe, would then be: The infrastructure was obliterated. Street cars came seldom, if at all, as the rubble had to cleared from the roads. Rail traffic was impeded/disabled/impossible. There was famine, with people stockpiling/hoarding/squirreling away produce bought from the local farmers; a harsh winter; people froze due to a lack of heating fuel and warm clothing. 76,000 homes were completely wiped out, 100,000 only partially inhabitable.
"What would REALLY be useful is to have the WHOLE sentence."
Would that satisfy you (paper on Austrian history, 1945):
"Die Infrastruktur war zusammengebrochen: Straßenbahnen verkehrten, wenn überhaupt, nur selten, es musste der Bauschutt auf den Straßen weggeräumt werden, der Zugsverkehr war behindert. Dazu kamen Hungersnot mit Hamsterkäufen bei den Bauern der Umgebung, ein strenger Winter, die Menschen froren mangels Heizmaterials und warmer Kleidung. 76.000 Wohnungen waren ganz, 100.000 teilweise zerstört." http://download.e-bookshelf.de/download/0003/5527/56/L-G-000...
Members of the public don't usually buy their food from farmers. I agree with Ramey that we need more context.
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
The people
16:55 Dec 4, 2015
were wiping out the farmer's market stands, or produce harvests; buying up everything in sight; didn't leave a leaf of lettuce; bought the farmers out; even bought the egg shells, and so on and so forth. What would REALLY be useful is to have the WHOLE sentence.
The meaning is that everyone tried to buy as much as possible (here from farmers) to store it for future times. Just like hamsters.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
7 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): +4
people buying what they could
Explanation: ... the market has been full in recent days of people buying what they could, gas lamps, masking tape, dried foods. Now that the deadline has run out people are at home and are likely to stay at home... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/2866547.stm
Dazu kamen Hungersnot mit Hamsterkäufen bei den Bauern der Umgebung... On top of that, there was a shortage of food, with people buying what they could from farmers in the surrounding countryside...
1) panic buying: more likely in a pre-war rather than a post-war situation
2) hoarding/stockpiling: from the context, it looks as if they were living hand-to-mouth
3) five words for one: there is no merit in choosing a shorter solution if it misrepresents the situation
Lancashireman United Kingdom Local time: 04:35 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 252