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German to English translations [PRO] Marketing - Idioms / Maxims / Sayings / Idiomatic expression
German term or phrase:Schlendrian mit Schlendrian vergleichen
[Ein Weinbaufirma] versuchte von Anfang an das Prinzip „Schlendrian mit Schlendrian vergleichen“ zu überwinden.
Context: The article is talking about applying innovative technologies in viticulture and winemaking. (Will be published on a wine industry website.)
One idea I have had, which I fear does not quite cover everything, is this: "From the outset, X has always tried to avoid "throwing good money after bad."
I am not happy with this rendition because it lacks the idea of comparing one inefficient thing with another.
Explanation: I think they want to take a fresh look at things, rather than seeking to find which of equally inefficient and outmoded methods are best. So I would put something like: "The company wishes from the outset to avoid comparisons between equally inefficient and outmoded methods, but rather to develop new and innovative concepts"
... that they wish to make a Herculean effort to shatter the time-heavy and galling chains of self-serving tradition and incompetence, to soar, Pegasus-like, into the lofty firmament of wine-making, putting to the blush the stars themselves! Can I have all the points now?
oa_xxx (X)
Germany
Thanks for the extra info!
15:11 Oct 25, 2012
Its an interesting expression that I have never come across before but could imagine coming up in some of the subject areas I translate so will have to note this page!
Allison Wright (X)
Portugal
ASKER
Agree with Orla
15:07 Oct 25, 2012
I agree that the expression in the ST has little to do with teaching old dogs new tricks. The author himself has a degree in economics, amongst other things, so would have been conscious of the helpful explanation you give in German. The main thrust of the much, much longer article is that the wine industry was badly in need of renovation and innovation in all areas in order to survive economically as well as produce quality wine. This is not a snappy marketing text, but a serious discussion of the "historical" steps taken for this particular wine industry to be able to compete on the international market. This is why I have chosen a translation which blends, rather than stands out - and something which is reinforced later on in the text. The English version sounds like something the trilingual author himself would say, too. :)
oa_xxx (X)
Germany
@Allison
15:06 Oct 25, 2012
Just saw your comment! Page isnt updating for some reason:) It is a pity that the points cant be split.
oa_xxx (X)
Germany
@Ramey
15:03 Oct 25, 2012
All that said... (I actually wrote my 1st comment yesterday but forgot to post it!!) i think your dont rock the boat could work!! From the outset, x has always tried to avoid the trap of not wanting to rock the boat...???! tho I think I would add some further explanation... sticking to old routines no matter how inefficient.. tho thats getting a bit too long ;) - or something with benchmarking which would bring in the Vergleich bit.... Anyway sorry for the late contribution, I'm sure Allison is already finished with this one!
oa_xxx (X)
Germany
I'm afraid I still dont agree!
14:34 Oct 25, 2012
The word "Schlendrian" is not an idiom (Redewendung) but Umgangssprache, meaning "eine langsame, träge, nachlässige und dadurch ineffektive und fehleranfällige Arbeitsweise... Der Schlendrian entsteht meist durch mangelnde Motivation und/oder zu ausgeprägte Routine bei der Arbeit." To me an idiom like teaching an old dog new tricks is something that most English speakers will be familiar with,not one of the Germans that I have asked have ever heard the expression "Schlendrian mit Schlendrian vergleichen" before (only 3 of them had heard of Schlendrian on its own)-it was coined in the 20th century by an economist to describe a specific problem not as a general idiom for everyday life-sure it is informal but it is not an idiom.In this context it means to me sticking to the same old routine, repeating mistakes/inefficient practices just because theyre traditional or things have always been done that way(or because no one notices the cause of the problems due to lack of analysis/research)rather than trying out new, innovative, completely different ideas/technologies etc. Using part of an idiom might be ok but would adapt it.
... and let it stew overnight. This is what I have come up with: "From the outset X-company has always tried to rise above the futility of comparing accepted practice with the merely mediocre." Each of you, amazingly, contributed something to this sentence. I am now happy that it says what it should say in this, and the broader context. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I should divvy up the points? :) Thank you for your support!
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Hi Orla
13:17 Oct 25, 2012
Considering the context of a "Prinzip", a deep-seated behavior pattern, accepted over years as "rule of thumb", which is idiomatically coined, then the translation should also adopt the idiomatic air. Often, idioms are universal in their meaning and ambiance, but their phrasing varies enormously. Colin's suggestion hits the literal meaning, but fails to capture the aura of the idiom, which then changes the tone of the text completely. There seems to be a struggle between the "old dogs" and the "new tricks", but I don't know if futility, ergo resignation, echoes the tone of the text, only Allison can decide that. I would nonetheless argue in favor of an idiom. It doesn't have to be mine (-;
oa_xxx (X)
Germany
As Colin pointed out...
13:01 Oct 25, 2012
this is a term that was coined by Eugen Schmalenbach for a specific context so I would not recommend using an English idiom in the translation. Also think Colin's suggestions (futile) work the best. or something like: avoid repeating the same mistakes/(futile comparisons?) or even the status quo trap...
See also ist-ist vergleiche: Ist-Ist-Vergleich ist die Art der Gegenüberstellung von Kosten und/oder Leistungen, bei der Istwerte einer bestimmten Periode mit Istwerten einer anderen Periode verglichen werden.... ...Da keine objektive Vergleichsbasis im Sinne von Vorgabewerten gegeben ist, besteht die Gefahr, daß **Fehler mit Fehlern verglichen** werden. (wirtschaftslexicon)
Allison Wright (X)
Portugal
ASKER
I like Colin Rowe's answer, so far
13:33 Oct 24, 2012
I will probably try and work in the "futile comparisons" phrase - or at least "futile". Thank you Colin for all the back-up references!
Allison Wright (X)
Portugal
ASKER
DE context (although actual context spans decades)
13:30 Oct 24, 2012
(sub-heading) Erkennen des Einflusses der Weinbautechniken auf die Weinqualität; Interaktivität beider Bereiche. (sub-heading). X versuchte von Anfang an das Prinzip „Schlendrian mit Schlendrian vergleichen“ zu überwinden. Deshalb wurden Workshops und Seminare von X veranstaltet, bei welchen wichtige Vertreter neuer Technologien aus dem wirtschaftlich fortschrittlichen Ausland vorgestellt wurden. Es war eine Herausforderung besonderer Art, Neues und Effektiveres vorzustellen ohne dabei zurückzuschauen auf das vermeintlich Gute und Bewährte. Dies führte bisweilen zu ungeplanten Konflikten. Die Wunschvorstellung war mit allen betroffenen Gruppen (öffentliche Verwaltung, Önologen, Weinbauern, Rebschulisten und Weinhändlern) zu einem gemeinsamen weinbezogenen Konzept zu kommen, anstelle auf Entscheidungen der zu dieser Zeit noch hoheitlich nach Verwaltungskriterien untergliederten Generaldirektionen zu warten.
Something like: 'The vineyard is seeking to move beyond discussing outdated options in its fostering of new technologies' .... Anything useful in that? I think I would go for rewording the sentence rather than tying myself in knots trying to mirror the idiom here.
Allison Wright (X)
Portugal
ASKER
More context
13:06 Oct 24, 2012
The overall context is that instead of stakeholders and policymakers trying to improve the general situation within the wine industry (in the past) by arguing for or against one or several outmoded ways of thinking, it was wiser to opt for newer technology, and approach "the problems" from a different perspective - which of course, would mean "letting go of old ideas" which do not work very well in this modern world with international export markets to exploit.
See page 108, footnote 2, for an explanation of the concept in German.
In other words, X made a conscious decision not to compare itself with other companies (X might be better than Y, but that does not necessarily mean that X is good), but to focus solely on its own efforts and achievements instead.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 49 mins (2012-10-24 13:15:35 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Conversely, if X compares itself with Y and finds that X is not as good, that does not mean that X is bad if Y just happens to be world-class.
So, instead of comparing themselves with others, they just decided to get on with doing what they are good at and focusing on doing it even better, without irrelevant reference to what others may or may not be doing.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 52 mins (2012-10-24 13:19:08 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
To put the phrase into context, "Schlendrian mit Schlendrian vergleichen" appears to be a quotation from the following work:
SCHMALENBACH, E. (1963): Kostenrechnung und Preispolitik, S. 447, 8. Aufl., Köln und Opladen 1963.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 59 mins (2012-10-24 13:25:55 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
For a change of imagery, fitting with the idea of innovating in the wine industry, you could also go for something like:
"From the outset, X decided to avoid making the mistake of putting new wine into old wineskins."
(figuratively speaking, of course!!)
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2012-10-24 13:36:21 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Since you like the references, here are the references for my modified suggestion:
Matthew 9:14-17, Mark 2:21-22 and Luke 5:33-39.
:-)
Colin Rowe Germany Local time: 12:02 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 63
1 hr confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
das Prinzip „Schlendrian mit Schlendrian vergleichen“ zu überwinden
raise the bar
Explanation: "Schlendrian mit Schlendrian vergleichen" means to use poor past performance as a benchmark and thus setting the bar low for current and future performance. Overcoming this principle means, essentially, to raise the bar.
NGK United States Local time: 05:02 Native speaker of: English, German PRO pts in category: 40
Explanation: I think they want to take a fresh look at things, rather than seeking to find which of equally inefficient and outmoded methods are best. So I would put something like: "The company wishes from the outset to avoid comparisons between equally inefficient and outmoded methods, but rather to develop new and innovative concepts"
Steve Kerry Local time: 11:02 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Please refer to the discussion entry below for a more ample discussion of this term.
peer agreement (net): +1
