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Kunstdenkmalinventarisation
Münchner Herzogshof
Jun 19, 2017 22:41
6 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term

Pfarrhof

German to English Art/Literary Religion
My text is about the Bischofshaus in Altomünster, and states: "Erst die Säkularisierung mit der Umwandlung des Bischofshauses in einen Pfarrhof brachte gewisse Modifikationen mit sich."

I'm a little confused by this. First of all, how is it becoming a Pfarrhof a sign of Säkularisierung? And then I'm not entirely confident about how to translate Pfarrhof, given that we're talking about a Catholic context here.

Would love your thoughts.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 Presbytery/parish house/clergy house
4 rectory
1 +1 parsonage
References
Bischofshaus als Gästehaus mit nachsäkularer Nutzung als Pfarrhaus

Discussion

Clive Phillips Jun 23, 2017:
@Lancashireman 'rectory' is not a term I would choose here. I sought to answer Emma's confusion by suggesting it might well have been possible for a former bishop's residence to be used as a presbytery at some point after the Bavarian secularisation of the early 19C.
AllegroTrans Jun 21, 2017:
Whatever is the correct translation for.... ..."Säkularisation", what this is simply about, in my view, is that a Bishop's residence later became a presbytery. In UK English (England and Wales) "presbytery" is the standard term used for the residence of a Catholic priest. In Scotland, this is often "manse" and in Ireland "parochial house" is used, as any fans of Father Ted will perhaps remember.
AllegroTrans Jun 21, 2017:
Disestablishment... has a very English connotation, being almost exclusively used in connection with the theory of making the Church of England no longer the official or State church of England (Scotland and Wales have different arrangements). The term does not really work for Germany, where there is no equivalent situation, as both the Catholic and Evangelical Protestant churches have equivalent status and receive State aid through personal taxation.
Lancashireman Jun 21, 2017:
"First of all... ... how is it becoming a Pfarrhof a sign of Säkularisierung?"
The first part of your question concerns a suitable translation for Säkularisierung. I would suggest disestablishment, defined here:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disestablishment
dis·es·tab·lish (dĭs′ĭ-stăb′lĭsh)
tr.v. dis·es·tab·lished, dis·es·tab·lish·ing, dis·es·tab·lish·es
1. To alter the status of (something established by authority or general acceptance).
2. To deprive (a church) of official governmental support.
I don't think that secularisation works well in English. Alternatively, the separation of church and state.
Lancashireman Jun 21, 2017:
Clive Yes, the question is in two parts, the less taxing of which was the best translation of Pfarrhof. If you look at my answer posted at 36 mins, you will see that I reached the same conclusion regarding Säkularisierung ("Säkularisierung here presumably refers to the dissolution of the monastery at Altomünster in 1813"), Any special reason why you have preferred the answer at 39 mins which ignores the asker's query?
Clive Phillips Jun 21, 2017:
'die Säkularisation' here refers, I think, to a Bavaria-wide process in 1802-03. After secularisation, it is conceivable that a bishop's palace might be used for other ecclesiastical purposes, eg as a presbytery.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Säkularisation_in_Bayern
"The Altomünster monastery was dissolved on 18 March 1803 during the secularisation of Bavaria, but was later revived."

Proposed translations

+3
39 mins
Selected

Presbytery/parish house/clergy house

A more "universal" word than its English counter[arts, since it can be used for all Christian denominations that have parishes and resident clergy.

In the Catholic sense:

Presbytery definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/presbyt...
A presbytery is the house in which a Roman Catholic priest lives.


Image result for parish house
www.landmarktrust.org.uk
Definition of parish house. 1 : an auxiliary building belonging to a church and used for its business, social, or extension activities. 2 : the residence of a clergyman (as a Roman Catholic priest)

Clergy house - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy_house
A clergy house is the residence, or former residence, of one or more priests or ministers of religion. Contents. [hide]. 1 Function; 2 Nomenclature; 3 Image gallery ...
‎Function · ‎Nomenclature · ‎Image gallery · ‎See also

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Note added at 23 hrs (2017-06-20 21:42:16 GMT)
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Roman Catholic Church of St Joseph - Diocese of Westminster
https://parish.rcdow.org.uk/bunhillrow/
Welcome to the webpage of the Roman Catholic Church of St Joseph, Bunhill Row Parish. Our postal address is St Joseph's Presbytery, 15 Lamb's Passage, ...
Reading St Joseph parish - Catholic Diocese of Portsmouth Directory
www.portsmouthdiocese.org.uk/directory/organisation/119.htm
Reading St Joseph parish. Click on map to zoom in. St Joseph's Presbytery, Berkshire Drive, Reading, Berkshire. RG31 5JJ. Telephone 0118 942 8632 Send a ...



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Note added at 23 hrs (2017-06-20 21:42:57 GMT)
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St John the Evangelist Catholic Church, Bath - Welcome
https://www.stjohnsrcbath.org.uk/
St John the Evangelist Roman Catholic Church, Bath - parish website ... archive has now been brought together and securely shelved upstairs at the presbytery.



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Note added at 23 hrs (2017-06-20 21:43:36 GMT)
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Parish Church of St Boniface » St Boniface
stbonifacechurch.co.uk/parish-church-of-st-boniface/
A Short History of St Boniface Parish Okehampton ... had more ambitious plans for a bigger church and presbytery, a school-room and possibly even a Convent.

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Note added at 23 hrs (2017-06-20 21:44:33 GMT)
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St Andrew's Catholic Church Tenterden
www.standrewstenterden.org/
St Andrew's Catholic Church The Presbytery 47 Ashford Road Tenterden Kent TN30 6LL Tel: 01580 762785. Email: [email protected]. Join us for ...
Peer comment(s):
agree Gordon Matthews : I would go for "presbytery" here as "the house in which a Roman Catholic priest lives". "Säkularisation" is a process whereby civil society and government remove themselves from the control of the Church (hierarchy). People may still be believers.
8 hrs
thanks
agree Clive Phillips
1 day 12 hrs
thank you
agree Lancashireman : Presbytery is another possibility here. What's your take on the asker's main concern - secularisation - though? // "First of all, how is it becoming a Pfarrhof a sign of Säkularisierung? And then I'm not entirely confident about how to translate Pfarrhof"
1 day 22 hrs
Thanks - not sure on "Säkularisierung" but I would think Asker is capable of researching this
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
36 mins

rectory

Roman Catholics use priory, clergy house, parochial house (mostly Ireland), chapel house (in Scotland), and rectory if appropriate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy_house

Säkularisierung here presumably refers to the dissolution of the monastery at Altomünster in 1813:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altomünster_Abbey
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : OK but would it not still be appropriate to refer to the building concerned as a presbytery (or former presbytery perhaps)? // No, presbytery as a Catholic priest's residence is standard in E&W and has no association with the Presbyterian church
17 hrs
Please check the question again. It's in two parts.
Something went wrong...
+1
56 mins

parsonage

Searchresult: 1413 museums and exhibition halls Museum name ...
https://www.museen-in-bayern.de/?...
0170/9454810, http://www.altomuenster.de/default.aspx? ...... Museumsstüble im Alten Pfarrhof Reistingen (Museum Room in the Old Reistingen Parsonage) ...

dict.cc | parsonage | Wörterbuch Englisch-Deutsch
https://www.dict.cc/?s=parsonage
204. Pfarrhaus {n} [lutherisch, methodistisch]. relig. parsonage. 5. Pastorat {n} [Pfarrhaus]. hist. relig. parsonage [surrounded by a court] · Pfarrhof {m} ...

Krumbach, Bavaria - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krumbach,_Bavaria
Krumbach (also: Krumbach (Schwaben)) is a town with about 12,500 residents in the district ... museum; waxart museum MORSA; Krumbad; church of Niederraunau; castle of Niederraunau; Dossenberger Pfarrhof (parsonage) Billenhausen.

File:Kirchehrenbach-Pfarrhaus-8216981.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
https://commons.wikimedia.org/.../File:Kirchehrenbach-Pfarrh...
English: former parsonage in Kirchehrenbach. Deutsch: ehemaliger Pfarrhof in Kirchehrenbach. Landessymbol Freistaat Bayern.svg, This is a picture of the ...

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Note added at 57 mins (2017-06-19 23:38:48 GMT)
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in German:

Barthel & Maus – „Bischofshaus“, Altomünster
https://barthelundmaus.de/bischofshaus-altomuenster
Das sog. Bischofshaus im Zentrum des Klosterbezirkes von Altomünster wurde 1689/90 unter Verwendung eines Vorgängerbaus als Gästehaus für ranghohe Besucher errichtet. ... Im Zuge der nachsäkularen Nutzung als Pfarrhaus ging der barocke Ziergiebel verloren, die klare Raumfolge wurde durch Einbauten verstellt.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2017-06-20 00:56:02 GMT)
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Museumsstüble im Alten Pfarrhof Reistingen (Museum Room in the ...
https://www.museen-in-bayern.de/.../museums.../museumsearch/...
Museumsstüble im Alten Pfarrhof Reistingen (Museum Room in the Old Reistingen Parsonage). Ziertheim, Lkr. Dillingen a. d. Donau / Schwaben. Wrought iron ...
Peer comment(s):
agree Herbmione Granger : http://www.dict.cc/?s=Pfarrhof 'Catholic parsonage' is often used when describing a property in Bayern ex: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/sex-abuse-scanda...
11 hrs
Thanks
neutral AllegroTrans : not in the RC church
12 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

47 mins
Reference:

Bischofshaus als Gästehaus mit nachsäkularer Nutzung als Pfarrhaus

Barthel & Maus – „Bischofshaus“, Altomünster
https://barthelundmaus.de/bischofshaus-altomuenster
Das sog. Bischofshaus im Zentrum des Klosterbezirkes von Altomünster wurde 1689/90 unter Verwendung eines Vorgängerbaus als Gästehaus für ranghohe Besucher errichtet. ... Im Zuge der nachsäkularen Nutzung als Pfarrhaus ging der barocke Ziergiebel verloren, die klare Raumfolge wurde durch Einbauten verstellt.
Something went wrong...