σύμβαση αισχροκερδής

12:18 Dec 16, 2014 

To Nick: Thank you, too, for your input. Although I actually lost sleep last night thinking about this dialogue, I am sure that your persistence in continuing with the discussion provided my brain with some very beneficial exercise which will probably contribute positively to postponing the onset of Alzheimer’s!

10:59 Dec 16, 2014 

Thank you. I feel I have learned a lot from this discussion.

10:52 Dec 16, 2014 

To Nick: The texts written in English about the respective Articles of the Greek Civil Code may not mention or use the word “profiteering” as such, but they refer to recognised categories of profiteering such as non-competition, restricting or curbing competition, restraint of trade, price fixing, demanding manifestly disproportionate suretyships, etc. Also, your comment that the writers of these texts were ‘reluctant’ to use the word ‘profiteering’ implies that you do not know what ‘reluctant’ means . By saying that the writers were ‘reluctant’ to use the word ‘profiteering’, you are saying that they preferred not to use the word. How can you possibly know this? Did they tell you that, themselves? They did not need to mention the word ‘profiteering’ because they referred to recognised categories of ‘profiteering’. For some of the other categories of profiteering, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profiteering_(business) which is a reference that I have aready provided.

09:54 Dec 16, 2014 

Καλημέρα.
Peter, I've never asked for "references linking ‘profiteering’ with the ‘Civil Code’ in countries other than Greece". I have very specifically been referring to the reluctance of writers to use 'profiteering' in English texts about these articles of the Greek Civil Code. It seems the articles have been based on similar articles of the German Civil Code, though. You may have better luck there.

@Andras: At the very beginning of my answer it says "αφορά γενικά το κείμενο του άρθρου και ενδεχομένως ειδικά την ακυρότητα των δικαιοπραξιών". I do not know the rest of Caroline's text. I have not restricted myself to the general answer that corresponds to "ανήθικος". I have looked for the solutions proposed by other writers, such as "exploitative". In the lexilogia link you mentioned, Themis, a translator for the EU, wrote:
"Το exploitative contract του Δόκτορα φαίνεται εύλογη εκδοχή, αν και θα χρειαζόταν περισσότερη έρευνα της χρήσης του. Βρήκα επίσης κάποια ενδιαφέροντα ευρήματα για profiteering contract, που όμως φαίνεται να ταιριάζουν μόνο σε περιπτώσεις αγοραπωλησίας, κρατικών προμηθειών κτλ."

09:01 Dec 16, 2014 

"Από τις διατάξεις αυτές των άρθρων 178 και 179 ΑΚ και ειδικότερα τη δεύτερη προκύπτει ότι για να χαρακτηρισθεί δικαιοπραξία ως αισχροκερδής καταπλεονεκτική και συνεπώς άκυρη λόγω αντίθεσής της στα χρηστά ήθη απαιτείται να συντρέχουν αθροιστικώς τρία στοιχεία και δη: α) προφανής δυσαναλογία μεταξύ παροχής και αντιπαροχής, β) ανάγκη ή κουφότητα ή απειρία του ενός των συμβαλλομένων και γ) η εκμετάλλευση της γνωστής σε αυτόν ανάγκης ή κουφότητας ή απειρίας του συμβαλλομένου τούτου από τον αντισυμβαλλόμενο."

Και συνεχίζει:

"Αν λείπει ένα από τα στοιχεία αυτά δεν μπορεί να γίνει λόγος περί ακυρότητας της δικαιοπραξίας ως αισχροκερδούς, δεν αποκλείεται όμως και στην περίπτωση αυτή ακυρότητα της δικαιοπραξίας αυτής λόγω αντίθεσής της προς τα χρηστά ήθη, κατά την γενική διάταξη του άρθρου 178 ΑΚ, αν συντρέχουν στοιχεία προσδίδοντα σε αυτήν ανήθικο χαρακτήρα."

http://lexilogia.gr/forum/showthread.php?14187-καταπλεονεκτι...

Άρα άλλο "αισχροκερδής" και άλλο "immoral" & "contra bonos mores", καθ' ομολογίαν --έμμεση, πλην σαφή-- του ίδιου.

06:32 Dec 16, 2014 

Nick: You asked for references linking ‘profiteering’ with the ‘Civil Code’ in countries other than Greece. You will find a few here: https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=SMqPVJOVBYuDaN2ogsAC&gws... and ones that mention profiteering with reference to the UK Civil Code and other countries’ Civil Codes, here: https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=SMqPVJOVBYuDaN2ogsAC&gws... and price fixing and the Civil Code, here: https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=SMqPVJOVBYuDaN2ogsAC&gws... and of price-fixing as a category of profiteering, here: https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=SMqPVJOVBYuDaN2ogsAC&gws... and to the relationship of competition laws to countries’ Civil Codes, here: https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=SMqPVJOVBYuDaN2ogsAC&gws... and to the relationship of profiteering with competition law, here: https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=SMqPVJOVBYuDaN2ogsAC&gws...
Need I continue? I can go on until the cows come home.

05:51 Dec 16, 2014 

[continuation] are a sub-category of ‘ανήθικες συμβάσεις’ in case ‘b’ of Article 179 of the Civil Code. I have also provided abundant internet references to show that the terms ‘profiteering contracts’ and ‘profiteering agreements’ exist in English and that they are a recognised category of ‘unethical contracts’. Another fact that encourages me in my conviction that the term ‘profiteering contracts’ is correct is the fact that Andras Mohay has agreed with it. My limited experience on Proz has taught me to do very careful research before arguing with Andras Mohay, because he always researches his answers extremely thoroughly. It therefore really all boils down to how you translate the word ‘αισχροκερδής’. How would you translate it, yourself? It is comprised of two separate words: ‘αισχρός’, meaning ‘foul’ or ‘indecent’, and ‘κέρδος’, meaning profit. So, logically, the word should mean, ‘making indecent profit’, which is a recognised description of the word ‘profiteering’. I would certainly translate ‘αισχροκερδές συμβάσεις’ as ‘profiteering agreements’ myself, with a thoroughly clear conscience, and I have recommended to Caroline that she does the same.

05:49 Dec 16, 2014 

To Nick: Good morning, (1) The chapter of the book, ‘European Employment Laws: A Comparative Guide’ which you gave a reference to, covers aspects of employment law, so I don’t see why you included it. (2) ‘Manifestly disproportionate suretyships’ are a recognised category of profiteering; see: https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=K7mPVO6XC9T58QP_84HgAg&g... . (3) The reference to the book, ‘The Law and Regulation of Franchising in the EU’ that you gave, includes details of another category of profiteering in its mention of Article 101 of the TFEU [I accept that this passage does not actually mention the word ‘profiteering’, but the activity it describes is a recognised sub-category of profiteering]; see: http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/15th-september-1939/3... and https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=cr2PVItX0aPwA-D-gNgN&gws... (4) In response to your reference: http://www.karagiannislawfirm.gr/astiko-dikaio/85-dikaioprax... , I gave four references of equally qualified Greek lawyers who expressed the opinion that ‘αισχροκερδές συμβάσεις’ [continued above]

23:17 Dec 15, 2014 

Και τα νομίσματα έχουν δύο διαφορετικά ονόματα για τις δύο πλευρές τους: κορόνα και γράμματα. :) Ας μου εξηγήσει κάποιος, παρακαλώ, γιατί νομίζετε ότι σε όλα τα αγγλικά κείμενα που αναφέρονται στα άρθρα του ΑΚ κανένας δεν μιλά για profiteering. Έχω δώσει πηγές που λένε ότι συνώνυμα του επιθέτου εδώ είναι "καταπλεονεκτικές" ή "καταδυναστικές". Φέρτε μία περίπτωση όπου συγγραφείς στην αγγλική γλώσσα χρησιμοποιούν το profiteering στη συζήτηση για τα άρθρα του ΑΚ και τότε μόνο ζητήστε από την ερωτώσα να χρησιμοποιήσει κι αυτή τον όρο του Ποινικού Κώδικα.

23:07 Dec 15, 2014 

"αισχροκέρδεια" βασικά είναι όρος του ΠΚ.

Στην ουσία η πράξη συνιστά Αισχροκέρδεια (πλεονεξία για αθέμιτη κερδοσκοπία) η οποία αποτελεί αδίκημα κατά τον Ποινικό Κώδικα που, σύμφωνα με τον Αστικό Κώδικα, μπορεί να επιφέρει και ακύρωση της οποιασδήποτε δικαιοπραξίας επί της οποίας βασίστηκε. Παράλληλα, από πλευράς Ενοχικού Δικαίου (ως κλάδου του Αστικού Δικαίου) αντιβαίνει τις αξίες, τις αρχές, τις διατάξεις και τη δεοντολογία της Προστασίας του Καταναλωτή ένεκα καταδολίευσης και αθέμιτων πρακτικών.
http://www.arcadiaportal.gr/news/oi-protaseis-tis-perifereia...

16:21 Dec 15, 2014 

Please do not judge my references until you take the time to read them carefully. I also suggest that we discontinue this discussion until you read my references carefully. Please.

16:13 Dec 15, 2014 

Incorrect. I have said that the Stamelos-Hatzimanoli and Oxford Dictionaries give the meaning of ‘αισχροκέρδεια’ to be ‘profiteering’ and until you provide me with definite evidence that the Greek word ‘αισχροκέρδεια’ means something else in English, I will continue to consider ‘αισχροκερδής’ [the adjective of the word ‘αισχροκέρδεια’] to mean profiteering . With respect, your references did not mention ‘profiteering’ because you had Googled ‘contra bonos mores contracts’ and ‘immoral contracts’ in order to obtain those references and, in this life, you get what you Google for.

15:55 Dec 15, 2014 

Peter, you keep distorting my words. From the start I gave the relevant articles of the law, translations in English and discussions in English about the specific articles. No one uses ‘profiteering’ in such English discussions. You are the only one saying that that is the correct translation. Feel free to use it in your own translations.

15:48 Dec 15, 2014 

Oh! That’s a good! I didn’t realise that you had a Greek law degree and were qualified to determine who was talking sense or not! [Perhaps, I’ll seek your advice if I ever have a legal problem]. While you are at it, you might as well add these to your list of people who are apparently talking nonsense:

http://www.nbonline.gr/journals/3/volumes/176/issues/883/lem...

and

http://www.palo.gr/blogs/eidhseis-ellada/ak-178-kai-ak-179-a...

and

http://foggs.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id...

15:20 Dec 15, 2014 

I’m not saying ‘profiteering contracts’ do not exist in reality or in the language. I’m saying that writers who know what they are talking about do not use the term in reference to the specific articles of the Greek Civil Code.

15:12 Dec 15, 2014 

I am sorry, I don’t agree with your last answer. The reference article I provided states that ‘αισχροκερδής contracts’ are a sub-category of ‘immoral contracts’ and until you provide me with definite evidence that the word ‘αισχροκερδής’ in that context has a different meaning in English, we are going to get nowhere. Also, in response to your comment that nobody has written about ‘profiteering contracts’ or ‘profiteering agreements’, please see:

https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=h_SOVObiKYSq8QOdk4GoDg&g...

and

https://www.google.gr/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=h_SOVObiKYSq8QOdk4GoDg&g...

14:52 Dec 15, 2014 

Because αισχροκέρδεια (the noun), profiteering, is a specific concept in criminal law (http://www.karagiannislawfirm.gr/poiniko-dikaio/121-eglimata... and αισχροκερδής (the adjective) is a specific description of juridical acts and contracts covered by the aforementioned articles of the Civil Code, and legal writers do not want people to become confused by having such unethical and inequitable acts described as 'profiteering'.

14:33 Dec 15, 2014 

No, I thought that you were referring to Greek language texts only, and when I remembered that you had provided references to English texts, too, I was about to delete the comment, but you beat me to it. I have already answered you concerning the English texts, and have provided evidence that 'profiteering contracts' are a sub-category of 'contra bonos mores' contracts. As the term 'profiteering contract' exists in Engllish, why not use it when it is appropriate to do so?

14:15 Dec 15, 2014 

Legal writers writing in English about the Greek Civil Code. Please!

14:06 Dec 15, 2014 

Of course, they have not used the word 'profiteering' because 'profiteering' is an English word. They have used the Greek word 'αισχροκερδής', which the Greek language equivalent of 'profiteering'.

13:57 Dec 15, 2014 

I cannot continue this discussion. I have provided ample evidence on how legal writers write about the specific articles of the Civil Code. No one has thought of using the term "profiteering".

13:53 Dec 15, 2014 

Sorry, but if ‘αισχροκέρδεια’ means ‘profiteering’ and if the word ‘αισχροκερδής’ is mentioned in ‘case b’ of Article 179 of the Civil Code, I don’t see how it can be irrelevant in this case. In the same way as Christmas pudding is Christmas pudding whether you eat it on the floor or at a table, the English interpretation of ‘αισχροκερδής’ should be the same in every context. Of course, if you can provide me with evidence that the word ‘αισχροκερδής’ is like a chameleon in that it changes it meaning to suit its surroundings, although the Σταμέλος-Χατημανώλη Dictionary of Legal Terms does not indicate that this is the case, I might begin to agree with you. Many kinds of ‘inappropriate behaviour’ are covered in different Articles of different laws or law codes simultaneously, and so your comment about ‘αισχροκέρδεια’ belonging to Articles 404 and 405 is not really relevant.

13:25 Dec 15, 2014 

Αισχροκέρδεια (Profiteering) belongs to the Criminal Code (Articles 404 & 405). Totally irrelevant here. See a suggestion from another source ("exploitative contract") in my notes.

13:10 Dec 15, 2014 

How do you justify translating ‘αισχροκερδής’ as ‘manifestly proportionate’ when the Μπαμπινιώτης dictionary describes the word as being the adjective of the noun ‘αισχροκέρδεια’, which it describes as meaning ‘η επίτευξη υπερβολικού κέρδους με διάφορους τρόπους, όπως η νοθεία εμπορεύματος, η απάτη και η πώληση σε υψηλότερες τιμές από τις επιτρεπτές’, and when the Σταμέλος-Χατζημανώλη Λεξικό Νομικών Ορών gives the meaning of ‘αισχροκέρδεια’ to be ‘profiteering’ (only), and when the Oxford Greek to English Dictionary gives the meaning of ‘αισχροκέρδεια’ to be ‘profiteering’ or ‘overcharging’.

12:21 Dec 15, 2014 

Where is "profiteering" in all this? The terms καταπλεονεκτικός and αισχροκερδής are in the interpretation (as mentioned at the beginning of my answer) and the specific meaning of αισχροκερδής in the article you mention would be similar to "manifestly disproportionate" (see "προφανής δυσαναλογία").

12:05 Dec 15, 2014 

If profiteering does not exist in Article 179 of the Civil Code, how do you explain this: “Σύμφωνα με την ΑΚ 179 περ. β έχουμε μια ειδική κατηγορία ανήθικης δικαιοπραξίας που είναι η αισχροκερδής ή καταπλεονεκτική δικαιοπραξία. Καταπλεονεκτική είναι η δικαιοπραξία με την οποία κάποιος εκμεταλλεύεται την ανάγκη, την κουφότητα (άγνοια) ή την απειρία του άλλου και επιτυγχάνει έτσι να συνομολογήσει ή να πάρει για τον εαυτό του ή για τρίτον, για κάποια παροχή, περιουσιακά ωφελήματα που κατά τις περιστάσεις βρίσκονται σε φανερή δυσαναλογία προς την παροχή. Οι αισχροκερδής δικαιοπραξίες είναι μόνο συμβάσεις με περιουσιακό χαρακτήρα και μάλιστα αμφοτεροβαρείς πχ πώληση (ΑΚ 513), μίσθωση (ΑΚ 574) κλπ ή ατελώς ετεροβαρείς πχ έντοκο δάνειο (ΑΚ 806) κλπ “…See the full text at: http://www.academia.edu/9594285/ΑΚ_178_and_179_Ανήθικη_και_α...
That would appear to say that profiteering contracts are a recognised sub-category of contra bonos mores contracts under Article 179.

11:15 Dec 15, 2014 

Good morning. Anyone who feels uncomfortable with the meaning of "immoral" here (which does not mean sexually immoral and has been used for a long time in civil and contract law) may try other terms. For instance:
manifestly disproportionate
https://books.google.gr/books?id=9AmfbET7GJ4C&pg=PA282#v=one...
obviously disproportionate
https://books.google.gr/books?id=wzKz5QlMnwUC&pg=PA113 (11.1)
clearly disproportionate (Note 345)
https://books.google.gr/books?id=12IYS2DuAlcC&pg=PA124
Or the Latin term.
Profiteering is never used in connection with Articles 178 and 179 of the Greek Civil Code.

09:54 Dec 15, 2014 

Further to my discussion entry of earlier this morning, I feel that the Greek equivalent of ‘contra bono mores contracts’ is ‘ανήθικες συμβάσεις’. Google “ανήθικες συμβάσεις” [with the inverted commas] to see what I mean. Although a profiteering contract could be described as being an unethical contract, the word ‘αισχροκερδές’ is very specific and deserves an equally specific translation. Since the term “profiteering contract” exists in English, why not use it when its use is appropriate?

06:39 Dec 15, 2014 

To Nick Lingris: Good morning, I am writing this here because there was not enough room in the ‘agree/neutral/disagree’ comment box. I have disagreed with your answer because, as my internet references confirm, the terms you suggest really apply more to sexually biased immorality and do not appear to include or to mention profiteering, which is what ‘αισχροκέρδεια’ is. Compare the internet references that I have given below with this: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Profiteering (busi... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profiteering_(business). I realise that you have given a book reference which describes ‘contra bonos mores’ activities as including ‘profiteering’ activities, but respectfully point out that even authors make mistakes sometimes. [The only reason why I classified my confidence of my answer at '3' (yesterday evening), was because I was not sure then whether the precise wording of my answer was correct. Otherwise I am certain that σύμβαση αισχροκερδής applies to profiteering). [Also, please see; http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c297.htm and compare that defintion with the internet references that I have given for profiteering in this discussion entry].