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Τhank you all for your immense help! You were an inspiration! It seems though that I have to come with a fitting expression of my own combinitng and taking in mind all your suggestions.
Transphy this kind of discussions are like food for the translators! They can be amusing but they can also be very educational in the end.
Mr Lees your dilemma is very interesting and raises many questions on how much freedom a translator truly has to embellish a text.
Mr Lingris imagine this that we now think of bad writing being recognized as a masterpiece after the author's death! You never know with literature critics!
Also I have another idea about what the author wants to tell us: the posture of the character's body being coiled=κουλουριασμένο! Maybe the author is sarcastic after all and wants to make his readers laugh!
Nick's comment raises an interesting point: if we have to translate something that's badly written, should we try to improve the quality of the writing in the translation, or try to preserve the "badness" of it?
My view is that with technical texts, where the content is more important than the style, it's OK to improve the text. However, with fiction, essays, or other "creative" writing, where the style is an important part of the message, we should try and produce something that's at the same linguistic level as the original, good or bad.
In the present case, there seems to be a consensus that the "koulouri" simile is rather clunky and ineffective, so perhaps the English translation of it should be clunky and ineffective, too.
Mα αυτά, εδώ, τα γραμμένα μπόρουν να γίνουν και ο πρόλογος του βιβλίου(!!!) γιά να αποθανατίσομε το....κουλούρι. Αχ! φτάνει. Να παραδεχθώ όμως πως, εγώ τουλάχιστο, γέλασα αρκετά από αυτή τη 'διατριβή' της φράσις του κουλουριού. Καλή σας μέρα όλους.
Καλημέρα κι από μένα! I guess bread sticks are long pieces of bread too then... (my contribution) Transphy, not until the book is written - we're writing a book, right? :)
Kαι σουσάμι και παπαρουνόσπορος μπαίνουν στα ''Bagels''. Better than ''baguettes'' which are just long pieces of bread. When is this story going to close???!!!!
Bagel cannot be used because it has not any sesame on top. Koulouri is koulouri, like mousakas is mousakas, tzatziki is tzatziki and ouzo is ouzo.
In addition "κουλούρι χωρίς σουσάμι" is an unrealistic exaggerated statement because no Greek can imagine that. All "koulouri" have sesame! So in this way the author wants to indicate that an obvious ingredient or trait is missing from his character...
I had great fun here, folks. But, I'm out. It remains for me to go around Golders Green and Clapton to look for a 'twisted' pretzl. It beggars belief!!
I just like the sound of "unbaked baguette", but it depends on the wider context, as I said in my answer entry. The problem with pretzel is that most people think immediately of something twisted. which doesn't seem to be the sense here.
Does the surrounding text have more food similes or metaphors? What is the general tone of the piece? One sentence isn't enough to get a feel of the language being used here.
We seem to be looking for a metaphor for something skinny, limp and lacking in colour. Here are some more ideas (all food based, and borrowing some ideas from other contributors):
- a stalk of rotting asparagus
- a drowned sausage
- a soggy bread stick
- the plucked neck of a spavined octogenarian ostrich (with apologies to P.G. Wodehouse RIP)
@ ELENI. 'pretzl' IS bread. 'Pretzl' IS a '' κουλούρι". 'Pretzl' IS Pale. 'Pretzl' IS without 'σουσάμι'. Personally, however, I doubt if its use would be understood by English people (who don't know what '' κουλούρι" is or how it looks). By the way, I have had a good laugh over this phrases.
The way I see it, koulouri is a unique culinary product and cannot be translated as anything else apart from koulouri. So, if we want to maintain the thought of the author either we generalize into a more inclusive term of bakery products (like bread) or we forget about it and we try to find another equivalent conveying the general idea; as many of you did.
Maybe the second option is more safe, more English-like, but the first one with the idea of bread holds another powerful charm because its more difficult to translate.
My first thouht for "κουλούρι" was a metaphor with "pretzl" exactly because it keeps the "bready" feeling like the "baquette" But sometimes the mind just stops to "easier" words... You are of a big help, guys!
Oh!! this has just arrived!! ''scrawny like a corncob without its kernels'', is as beautiful. OH, I had to laugh with this one!!!**like a tit in a trance**
Ελένη, το δικό μου δέν σου άρεσε??????¨( Το να πεις 'skinny as a fiddle stick' ή 'skinny as an unbaked baguette' ή 'skinny like α beanpole' είναι εξ' ίσου εκφραστικά στα Αγγλικά όσο το Ελληνικό ' κουλούρι χωρίς σουσάμι'. Τι ωραία όλα!!!!!
First of all, it is a literary text so we take the permission to be creative. Secondly the writer is Greek and for me the Greek style must be preserved. We would not turn Seferis or Elytis into Englishmen, would we?
Secondly, let's take a look to the meaning of αχαμνος αχαμνός -ή -ό [axamnós] Ε1 : (λογοτ., λαϊκότρ.) 1α. (για άνθρωπο, ζώο ή μέλος του σώματος) ισχνός1, λιπόσαρκος, αδύνατος: Είναι ~ από φυσικού του / από την αρρώστια. || (για φυτό) που δεν αναπτύχτηκε κανονικά. β. αδύνατος ή αδύναμος: Είναι λιγάκι ~ και δεν αντέχει πολύ. 2. για ύλη της οποίας η σύνθεση είναι περισσότερο μαλακή από όσο θα έπρεπε: Aχαμνό ζυμάρι / κερί. αχαμνούτσικος -η -ο YΠΟKΟΡ. αχαμνούλης -α -ικο YΠΟKΟΡ.
As you can see it refers to a person who is skinny without doubt, but also soft meaning timid, courageless or even a coward...so it is a great challenge to translate all this in English.
Thirdly, we have the word κουλούρι which for the Greeks is a cultural culinary product (if we can describe it as such).
Philip although I liked your translation I would say that baguette has French or European connotations, not Greek.
We must take into account that "αχαμνός σαν κουλούρι" is a strangely coined phrase even in Greek and the English equivalent must also be radical and creative. We must not search for a commonly used English expression.
Καλησπέρα Βασιλική! Ενδιαφέρον το ερώτημα σου όμως γιατί το έβαλες non-pro; Θεωρώ ότι είναι pro ερώτημα...και μάλιστα απαιτεί και μεγάλη δόση δημιουργικότητας καθώς το πρόβλημα δεν είναι μόνο το αχαμνός αλλά όλη η σύναψη και η εύρεση της ισοδυναμίας...
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
1 hr confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
pale and skinny as an unbaked baguette
Explanation: Trying to keep the bread motif here. A lot depends on the wider context.
Philip Lees Greece Local time: 00:24 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 32
peer agreement (net): +1
