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Portuguese to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature
Portuguese term or phrase:roça
I'm not sure of the exact definition of this word in context, as the dictionary mentions there's a meaning specific to Bahia, namely the outskirts of Salvador. Is that what is meant here? In dialogue, the character says: "Salvador é uma roça. É difícil citar alguém a quen não posso pedir, vez ou outra, um favorzinho." Thanks!
Thank you all for a lively discussion. I'm going to keep playing with this one to see if I can come up with something that has a bit more pejorative a slant. But for now this seems to be the closest, as it captures the idea of everyone knowing one another. Thanks Mario! 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
It's far from me to insult you, I just didn't like the way you treated me as someone having poor English knowledge who did not understand what you meant, with your post to Bruno, even though I understood it very well, as did he. So let's stop it right here and get on with work that is more important.
I am very happy for your advanced knowledge of Brazilian life. However, i simply asked a question because I have heard of "roca" being connected to the idea of a religious "temple". If this proves to you that I am a little inadequate in knowledge, then I am very happy for you. ps. I do not come onto this forum to dispute with, insult or to berate my fellow translators, if you prefer to do this and as such discredit every comment I make, (as you very often do anyway), then you obviously have no important work to do.
What is more, my post did not discuss the difference between a ranch and a farm, but simply the connotations that we associate with them in UK. If you know them already I am happy for you, but hopefully this will also help other translators who may use this Kudoz glossary in their future work!
>a ranch could, theoretically, not even have any buildings on it My friend in Texas has a piece of land with cattle on it which he calls his "ranch" and there are NO buildings.
Ranch-style house: Ranch (also known as American ranch, California ranch, rambler, or rancher) is a domestic architectural style originating in the United States. ... The house style fused modernist ideas and styles with notions of the American Western period of wide open spaces to create a very informal and casual living style. Ranch-style house - Wikipedia
ranch /ran(t)SH/ noun 1. a large farm, especially in the western US and Canada, where cattle or other animals are bred and raised.
it’s important to remember that all ranches are farms, but not all farms are ranches.
A ranch is a specific type of farm. Ranches usually carry cattle or sheep, and their primary focus is optimal care of the animals.
I know the difference between farm and ranch, Lara... and I think Mario clearly pointed out what the problem is here... I started off being amused with your presumption of "roça" being about a ''special worship of the African religion''...:)). I believe I know more about Brazil than what you assume.
I learned English in the US, so to me a "ranch' is a cattle farm, usually a big one too. The term has no relation to any type of building whatsoever, and given the actual meaning of the word, a ranch could, theoretically, not even have any buildings on it, although most of them do have a nice big house built by the owner. Ranch owners are usually rich farmers and like to show-off that status. Now, I have no idea what a ranch would be in the UK. This may be the root of the entire discussion.
Basically, if you are used to using the English language, and you are aware of all its connotations and nuances, it would appear that "Farm" can easily be used in a pejorative sense, while using "Ranch" in the same way does not work. This is probably because there are a lot of funny uses for "farm", and many jokes are made about farms, giving this "farm life" idea a slight sense of tragi-comedy. On the other hand (probably just by an arbitrary chance) the word "ranch" is not really used in such connotations or in such jokes in our language - nothing to do with preference for one or the other term, but simply a case of cultural/social connotations and common usage.
What is it exactly that you do not understand? A ranch always centres around a building, which is the focus of the area that we normally call "ranch", which is all I said. While, this should suggest, if you understand English properly, that a ranch could not realistically be likened to a town (or city or similar largely populated area), because in English to me it sounds odd culturally to say that - you are entitled to your own opinion should you think it is an excellent choice of word! * I am sorry if you have problems understanding my native 52-year usage of my own language; * And I am sorry if you find it difficult to understand that everybody has their own view point; * And I am sorry also if you feel the need to speak on behalf of other translators who have a voice themselves should they wish to say something.
I am aware it is nothing to do with farming, and "farm" can also be used in UK in a pejorative way. I see "farming land" here as conveying the spirit of rustic life, but I have read all the explanations given and understand its usage here.
As I explained below, your friend from Porto Seguro is considering the dictionary meaning of the word "roça" alone. He did not consider the expression "é uma roça" used in a large metropolitan area like Salvador. It has nothing to do with "farming" at all. It's pejorative and it's an idiom or slang sort of thing.
I do not understand your post, as I said, to define (or identify) a town as a small area or building like a ranch, does not make logical sense, that is all I said.
Sorry Lara, this is exactly what you posted to Bruno: "But you can't define a town as a building, which is what a ranch is." Meaning, a ranch is a building, according to you...
I have a friend from Porto Seguro (here in UK), who has just confirmed that where he comes from they use this term to describe a farm - that was his English definition anyway. I guess in England sometimes we could call something a "farm" in order to criticise the way it functions. If it was emphasized, for example "Salvador has turned out to be a bit of a farm..." this could possibly express the meaning in a conversational way, but rural/countryside associations generally all work here.
If you look up "roça" in the dictionary, it will likely say it's a small area where you have a small crop. However, when you say "é uma roça", that is a regional expression, almost slang, used when you are in a big city but people behave as if they were in the countryside, in a small town. Salvador is one of the largest cities in Brazil. Stating it's "uma roça" is a way to put it down, saying that people there behave like hillbillies.
I'm not sure about English, but in Portuguese, we use "rural" as opposed to "urban". So rural town would make no sense in PT. It's either in a rural area or in a town. Also, regarding Shanty Town, it doesn't mean it's in the coutryside. It's more like a "favela".
O texto deixa claro que se trata de um lugar 'pequeno', onde todos se conhecem e prestam favores, não usaria "provincial" por ser ainda mais pejorativo ou depreciativo. Em alguns casos, usam o 'roça' para descrever determinadas cidades. 'A cidade X é uma roça', fazendo referência à infraestrutura, como ruas, etc.
Can you give more context to this word in the poem, or explain the meaning or subject of the poem. Is this about worship of the special African religion? Thanks.
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Answers
49 mins confidence:
hick-clique
Explanation: Usually, roça means some place away from the city, a more pejorative slang for countryside, farm or ranch.
However, it seems that in this particular case, in addition to this countryside meaning, the author wanted to add–giving that cities far from large centers have fewer people–the meaning of a place where everybody knows everybody, like an exclusive group of people, or, as I suggested, a clique.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 52 mins (2020-03-02 21:13:28 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Example sentence: "Salvador is a hick-clique. It's hard to name one person from whom I cannot, now and then, ask for a little favor."
Explanation: Salvador was a major centre for the African slave trade in the colonial period. Muslim African slaves in the city staged a widespread revolt there in 1835. Salvador still has one of the largest concentrations of black and mulatto populations in Brazil. Those groups have contributed many of the folkways, costumes, and distinctive foods for which the city is noted.
Example sentence(s):
The favelas have grown up higgledy-piggledy, with densely-packed dwellings, unpaved streets and open sewers. Houses cling precariously to the hillsides; a heavy rain can wash away the shallow foundations, burying homes and their occupants under mudslides.
Explanation: Roça is a popular name gived for rural areas composed by ranchs and farms. When someone are born and grown in a countryside here in brazil you say that he's a 'roçeiro' a guy who was born in a farm and grow on that enviroment, a guy constituted by a countryside culture.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 56 mins (2020-03-02 21:17:08 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
it is of course pejorative, Roça is the place where a bumpkin was born..
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2020-03-02 21:31:40 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
So when character says: "Salvador é uma roça. " and after "É difícil citar alguém a quen não posso pedir, vez ou outra, um favorzinho."
He's trying to say that Salvador it's a small place, where everybody knows each other (in other words, a place where the social nets are not complex) and so a place where you can get easily a favor from someone already known.
Bruno Dutra Brazil Local time: 09:03 Works in field Native speaker of: Portuguese PRO pts in category: 4
