el pésame y perra mora

English translation: Two popular dances

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Spanish term or phrase:	El pésame y perra mora
English translation:	Two popular dances
Entered by:	Toni Castano

18:54 Jul 1, 2019

Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / poesía barroca española - El baile de la Chacona

Spanish term or phrase: el pésame y perra mora

I have done a lot of research for 'perra mora' and supposedly it's an insult mostly thrown at Jews and Moors. Somewhere I saw it translated as 'moorish bitch'. I'd be interested to hear your take on this, and how it fits the context. Many thanks in advance!

El baile de la chacona
encierra la vida bona.

¡Qué de veces ha intentado
aquesta noble señora,
con la alegre zarabanda,
**el pésame y perra mora,**

entrarse por los resquicios
de las casas religiosas
a inquietar la honestidad
que en las santas celdas mora!

¡Cuántas fue vituperada
de los mismos que la adoran!
Porque imagina el lascivo
y al que es necio se le antoja.

Lydia De Jorge KudoZ activity Questions: 705 (none open) (28 closed without grading) Answers: 8502 United States
Local time: 15:52

two popular dances (untranslatable???

Explanation:
Yes, I agree with you that “perra mora” is a very offensive insult (= Moorish bitch), but in this case the author, my admired Cervantes, is mentioning two dances that were popular at his time. I didn´t know that myself, I admit. I could have never figured out that two dances are meant here… but they are according to the two (trustworthy, in my view) references below.

If both terms can be and should be rendered into English is debatable. To be able to translate them, a bit more of research would be indispensable. The English version I found offers no translation, but the two names in italics and a note below (what is very significant by itself).

Be that as it may, I´m sure these two links might be very helpful to support your further research.
Page 773:
https://books.google.es/books?id=thg-e85K180C&pg=PA773&lpg=P...

Page 328:
https://books.google.es/books?id=IdugCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA328&lpg=P...

Selected response from:

Toni Castano
Spain
Local time: 22:52

Grading comment

Many thanks!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

3 +4

Toni Castano

3 +1

the mead-and-sympathy dance and the boorish-moorish harlot jig

Adrian MM.

Summary of reference entries provided

Refs. only

Taña Dalglish

In the flesh, so to speak...

Cecilia Gowar

Discussion entries: 9

Charles Davis

Spain

@Taña

03:22 Jul 2, 2019

I sympathise. I hadn't heard of it until things started appearing in the press about Miley Cyrus twerking a while back. Mind you, it's probably fun to do if you're in the mood.

Here's a fun page about sexy dancing in the Renaissance, particularly la volta, a "a lewd and unchaste dance", which Elizabeth I apparently enjoyed:
https://earlymusicmuse.com/lavolta/

Taña Dalglish

Jamaica

@ Charles

21:09 Jul 1, 2019

I have to laugh when you mentioned "twerking"! You're up-to-date on the latest trend(s), I must say! It is "the thing" in my country. But, call me an ol' prude, it is horrific, and that is probably a mild word! LOL! LOL!

Lydia De Jorge

United States

ASKER

@Charles

21:05 Jul 1, 2019

My exact words! There's also a style of dance called 'perreo' that would make my grandmother turn in her grave.

Lydia De Jorge

United States

ASKER

dance-songs

21:02 Jul 1, 2019

Some of the lyrics would make a sailor blush!

Charles Davis

Spain

Human nature being what it is

21:01 Jul 1, 2019

The seventeenth-century equivalent of twerking, maybe? :-)

Lydia De Jorge

United States

ASKER

@Charles

20:59 Jul 1, 2019

The more things change, the more they stay the same. ;)

Charles Davis

Spain

Dances indeed

20:21 Jul 1, 2019

They're Spanish dances and of course they don't have names in English. Probably all you can do is translate their Spanish names literally.

Howard Mancing defines them, not very usefully, in his Cervantes Encyclopedia:

"Pésame dello. A popular festive dance based on a line of poetry meaning 'I'm sorry about it.'"
"Perra mora. A popular dance."
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GH9zBQZbbBQC

They were probably lively and sexy. They're associated in your text with two dances, the chacona and the zarabanda, that were notoriously lascivious, especially the latter. In the seventeenth century they banned actresses from dancing the zarabanda on stage in the public theatres on grounds of indecency. Here the Diccionario de autoridades definition of zarabanda from 1739:

"Tañido, y danza viva, y alegre, que se hace con repetidos movimientos del cuerpo poco modestos."

José Patrício

Portugal

19:56 Jul 1, 2019

Un tal Guerrero le llama ‘filthy bitch’:
Di, perra mora, Tell me, filthy [Moorish] bitch, di, matadora, Tell me, murderess - https://calperformances.org/learn/program_notes/2013/pn_sava...

Lydia De Jorge

United States

ASKER

@Taña

19:28 Jul 1, 2019

I have no idea what happened in my reply to your comment. Just ignore it.

Answers

33 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +4

two popular dances (untranslatable???

Toni Castano
Spain
Local time: 22:52
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Spanish
PRO pts in category: 4

Grading comment

Many thanks!

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thank you! Indeed they are helpful!

3 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

the mead-and-sympathy dance and the boorish-moorish harlot jig

Explanation:
Quintessentially (flat-footed) English Morris dancing would of course be incongruous, but the persistent rumo(u)rs of a Moorish conection are still worthy of note.

Perra can also mean a whore: Langenscheidt DEU/ESP 'eine Hure'.

PS 'untranslatable' doesn't mean a stab (excuse the criminal overtones in this violent day and age) shouldn't be made.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2019-07-02 09:08:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

for dance, also read 'twirl' to get away from the 'twerking' narrative.

Example sentence(s):

It is possible that the word Morris is derived from the word ‘Moorish' or ‘morisco' (a derogatory term meaning ‘little Moors'). but it is pretty certain that, whatever the origin of the word, there is no evidence that the dance came from the Moors .

Reference: http://www.britannica.com/art/Morris-dance

Adrian MM.
Austria
Native speaker of:

English

Reference comments

26 mins peer agreement (net): +3

Reference: Refs. only

Reference information:
https://books.google.com.jm/books?id=sG0bAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT3752&...

Delphi Complete Works of Miguel de Cervantes (Illustrated)
By Miguel de Cervantes

http://rsonarefibris.blogspot.com/2010/08/di-perra-mora.html
****Perra Mora: Baile español que data aproximadamente del siglo XVI. De ritmo quinario, no se posee descripción coreográfica, pero Cervantes lo sitúa en el ámbito de la zarabanda, el pésame-dello y la chacona en su La Ilustre Fregona.*** La música que se conserva es de Pedro Guerrero, un compositor del que sabemos pocas cosas y que queda oscurecido por ser hermano de una de las mayores estrellas del Renacimiento español. Además de hermano de Francisco fue su primer maestro de música, por lo que ya tendría cabida en la historia de la música. Su vida transcurrió entre su Sevilla natal e Italia, a la que llegó alrededor de 1560. Se estableció en Roma y allí fue cantor en Santa María la Mayor. Conservamos obras suyas publicadas por Fuenllana, Galilei, Pisador, Elústiza y Samuel Rubio. Esta es una de sus obras, Di, perra mora, una pequeña joya que vale la pena escuchar (a pesar de su título tan políticamente incorrecto en los días que corren, mas no por aquellos entonces), conservada en el Cancionero de Medinaceli. Se trata de una canción a cuatro voces cuyo original se encuentra en la Biblioteca de Medinaceli.

I haven't found any links/translation indicating "moorish b***", so I don't know how that fits in, but I didn't look to hard.

Taña Dalglish
Jamaica
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 32

Note to reference poster

Asker: I'm inclined to think it makes reference to the dance but there are several documents such as:https://books.google.com/books?id=Gr8bDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT207&lpg=PT207&dq=perra+mora+como+insulto&source=bl&ots=FSc3T3RLKt&sig=ACfU3U0szIwjyoQ26RANTn2nUacpFoWruw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8m9D3uJTjAhXgB50JHWmxAosQ6AEwD3oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=perra%20mora%20como%20insulto&f=false

53 mins peer agreement (net): +2

Reference: In the flesh, so to speak...

Reference information:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoC_wBSIi6k

Cecilia Gowar
United Kingdom
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

Spanish
PRO pts in category: 227

Note to reference poster

Asker: Many thanks!

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English translation: Two popular dances

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