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At least they are honest: "job is mainly for budding translators... rate... on lower side"
Thread poster: Henry Hinds
Deborah do Carmo
Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:55
Dutch to English
+ ...
Where you do get your stats from? Mar 14, 2008

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:

Experienced, professional translators are, on the other hand, more and more unpopular.



I'm interested what you base this on, because my email inbox (and bank account) certainly doesn't reflect that.

If you're truly good at what you do Viktoria - and the impression you give, at least, is that you probably are - you should be booked up in advance.

If you're not, the problem doesn't lie with the newcomers - they are not a new phenomenon - then you've simply not created your own niche.

Every market has its segments, any realignment probably needs to focus on that.


[Edited at 2008-03-14 17:41]


 
Deborah do Carmo
Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:55
Dutch to English
+ ...
Might be in your neck of the woods Mar 14, 2008

Henry Hinds wrote:

Unfortunately it does sound like a broken record. Sometime ago I tried to get some response from oursourcers, agencies or whatever they are called to find out what their point of view would be, because here we only get one side.

Plenty of translators chimed in, but not a one from that other side.

So it appears to be a market where there is a lot missing; understanding and communication to say the least.


But certainly not from where I'm sitting.

So, let's try and fix the record in future. Be more pro-active for starters, instead of giving up after the first try and rehashing the same idea that we (the "consummate professionals") are some type of downtrodden, endangered species.

I mean get serious Henry, is a budding translator going to be able to handle what you do? All those piles of hard copy cases you're known for? Let them get a foot on the ladder and work their way up. They're no threat to you.


 
Henry Hinds
Henry Hinds  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:55
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
In memoriam
That's why I help Mar 14, 2008

No one is any threat to me at all. And I am certainly not talking about my neck of the woods because I do not compete in the market that most others do. You may have a better situation than most, just as I do.

However, bad agencies and bad translators are a big threat to the image of our profession, which is something that we all need to work to correct.

We can combat the bad agencies by not responding to them, and we can combat bad translators by helping them to become
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No one is any threat to me at all. And I am certainly not talking about my neck of the woods because I do not compete in the market that most others do. You may have a better situation than most, just as I do.

However, bad agencies and bad translators are a big threat to the image of our profession, which is something that we all need to work to correct.

We can combat the bad agencies by not responding to them, and we can combat bad translators by helping them to become good ones.

But since we have no power over such matters, all we can try to do is exert a moral force. We cannot prevent the bad ones from coming in, and a lot do, so it goes on and on.
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Jeff Whittaker
Jeff Whittaker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:55
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Translators on Craig's List Mar 14, 2008

Have you tried browsing the writing/editing/translating section or write/ed/tr8 as it is abbreviated on Craig's List under Services? (That is, if we are allowed to mention Craig's List here). http://www.craigslist.org/about/cities.html

There are "translators" offering their services for as little as $1 a page and many are willing to work for free or for the "fun" of it.

[E
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Have you tried browsing the writing/editing/translating section or write/ed/tr8 as it is abbreviated on Craig's List under Services? (That is, if we are allowed to mention Craig's List here). http://www.craigslist.org/about/cities.html

There are "translators" offering their services for as little as $1 a page and many are willing to work for free or for the "fun" of it.

[Edited at 2008-03-14 20:43]
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Deborah do Carmo
Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:55
Dutch to English
+ ...
Enlighten me please ... Mar 14, 2008

Henry Hinds wrote:

No one is any threat to me at all. And I am certainly not talking about my neck of the woods because I do not compete in the market that most others do. You may have a better situation than most, just as I do.

However, bad agencies and bad translators are a big threat to the image of our profession, which is something that we all need to work to correct.

We can combat the bad agencies by not responding to them, and we can combat bad translators by helping them to become good ones.

But since we have no power over such matters, all we can try to do is exert a moral force. We cannot prevent the bad ones from coming in, and a lot do, so it goes on and on.



... it's the end of a long day. Maybe I'm missing something that is blatantly obvious.

What exactly have you done to help here?


 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 08:55
English to French
+ ...
It was sarcasm Mar 15, 2008

Lawyer-Linguist wrote:

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:

Experienced, professional translators are, on the other hand, more and more unpopular.



I'm interested what you base this on, because my email inbox (and bank account) certainly doesn't reflect that.



Business is good over here and I am definitely not out of work. My post was simply a sarcastic remark. I simply meant to say that budding translators seem to be the new hot item, judging from the unrealistic expectations we have seen lately (latest e-mail I got: requires three references, diploma and free test before paying you 7 cents per word for highly specialized translation, and says they don't have a choice because they don't have a budget for more). Rates seem to be sinking so fast that it seems that the overwhelming majority of jobs is now targeting budding translators. And now, it seems that some outsourcers are even specifying that the job is for noobs, that is, people who cannot afford to charge much because they are not seasoned pros (that is, the outsourcers value low rates over quality).

There is nothing wrong with charging less when you are new to the business and lack experience and there is nothing wrong with outsourcers trying to get the best rates. But I really find that budding translators are the only kind that outsourcers are nowadays willing to afford. There is only one problem: those budding translators will soon be too experienced for these jobs. It seems as though the duration of a career in translation is shortening, which makes no sense because true quality translations do require experience. What effect will this have on quality in general? We think there are quality issues now in the world of translation - we ain't seen nothing yet...


 
Henry Hinds
Henry Hinds  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:55
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
In memoriam
Excuse me Lawyer Mar 15, 2008

I do not care for your insults and I do not care to carry on some kind of battle with you.

 
Laura Tridico
Laura Tridico  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:55
French to English
+ ...
I'm not sure I follow Mar 15, 2008

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:

Experienced, professional translators are, on the other hand, more and more unpopular.

There is only one problem: those budding translators will soon be too experienced for these jobs. It seems as though the duration of a career in translation is shortening, which makes no sense because true quality translations do require experience. What effect will this have on quality in general? We think there are quality issues now in the world of translation - we ain't seen nothing yet...


I'm a relatively new to the field, and I've followed many of these rate discussions. I actually appreciate them to some degree because they've helped me better understand the different markets, but sometimes these threads seem unduly pessimistic.

I admit I undercharged early in my translation career simply out of ignorance and bad advice. But with experience, my rates have quickly risen. I've lost a couple of clients for this reason, but gained many more, so I fail to see why taking lower-rate jobs at the beginning of one's career means that you'll "outgrow" the profession once you gain more experience. On the contrary, as with most careers, experience allows translators to significantly raise rates and move to better market segments . It's about growing a business. I have a specialty, I do quality work, and am successful as a result. It isn't magic, and I have no fear of being pushed out by new translators who are willing to accept lower rates. They operate in a market segment I've left behind.

I choose to work almost exclusively with agencies for many reasons, but here, in my second year of translating, my income should far exceed the average income for a U.S.-based translator. Good rates are out there for top-quality work, even for newer translators. I think that's an alternative message that often gets left out of these discussions.

Laura

[Edited at 2008-03-15 03:10]


 
Language Aide Pvt. Ltd. - Translation & Interpreting Agency
Language Aide Pvt. Ltd. - Translation & Interpreting Agency
India
Local time: 18:25
English to Hindi
+ ...
I am the culprit Mar 15, 2008

Respected translators,

I am the culprit and the main reason behind the opening and discussion and arguments going on and on on this forum.

I wish my post will make a happy end of this forum, (or may be the beginning of new fruitful discussions).

Whatever I am putting forward entirely belongs to my own opinion and may differ from and does not necessarily represent of that of the other agencies owners’ or project managers’.

First of all, I wo
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Respected translators,

I am the culprit and the main reason behind the opening and discussion and arguments going on and on on this forum.

I wish my post will make a happy end of this forum, (or may be the beginning of new fruitful discussions).

Whatever I am putting forward entirely belongs to my own opinion and may differ from and does not necessarily represent of that of the other agencies owners’ or project managers’.

First of all, I would like to answer the question being put by some Prozians time and again that why the other part of the translation community, i.e., translation agency, translation company, translation mid-men, whatever you call them, take part in the forum discussions.

The reasons, at least for me, are not one but two as mentioned below:

1. I am extremely busy, and may be other project managers or agency owners too are. So busy that my urge to post my opinion in certain forums almost always gets washed away by my another urge of making more money through making more advertisements, dealing more clients, or tackling other several problems in the agency I represent to at that time of writing in forum. The time is limited to 24 hours to everyone and I, unintentionally, prefer the later to former urge.

It does not mean that the esteemed translators and other people of Proz are not busy. They are busy, extremely busy too. But it may be that their urge of writing something in a forum gets sometimes more important than encashing that bit amount of time by doing translation and all. After all, the people are not here only for making money but also for contributing to the society and doing other activities for fun, collaboration and other benefits.

You can call me selfish. Extremely selfish, but before forming any opinion about me, I have another reason of not writing to forums as mentioned below:

2. I think I have extremely bad English in comparison to so educated translators and other people of language industry who regularly contribute in different forums here at Proz.com. You will laugh, but sometimes I even do not understand a topic even though it is entirely in English.. and sometimes I ask my translators what does it mean by this topic by referring the link of that topic to them.

I sometimes don't know where to punctuate properly, I am not always sure if certain sentences formed by me exactly deliver what I intend to put, and I am always afraid that my opinion will not match the standard of writing the forum is carrying out. For example, the current topic I am writing!

So these are the reasons, at least from my part, why the agencies, like that of mine, do not often take part in the forum discussions.

-----------------------------

Now regarding the current ongoing topic:

What I meant by "budding translators" in a recently posted job is: I wanted to call upon those translators:

1. Who are native or have almost native level proficiency in both target as well as source languages, but they have never worked as a translator, however, have opened an account at Proz.com very recently in want of some work in order to earn some extra income, or,

2. Students, who are native in the target language, learned or learning the source language, hardly started working in the field, but have opened an account at Proz.com very recently and they are in want of some work mainly for experience and may be for some income, or,

3. By this post, I also expected the response from those translators, who are experienced and established, but may not have work at hand currently, and would like to work for me temporarily on a project for whatsoever reasons.

4. By this post, I also expected the response from those translators, who, though having good rate, still may like to work for me out of sheer curiosity, curiosity of working on projects offering lower-rate, curiosity of working for an Indian agency, curiosity of working out of fun, curiosity of providing help to a developing country's agency etc. etc. I know such curious people are very very less in number. But they do exist. Believe me!

I really respect and appreciate and say "thank you" to the site staff or moderator of this forum who has edited the title of this forum and make it renamed as "At least they are honest:..... " because indeed I am honest and wrote that job post and now this forum topic very honestly.

But at the same time, I am really really very sad and disappointed of being labelled as a "bad agency" http://www.proz.com/topic/99662?start=15&float= by Mr. Henry. He is so senior a translator… I just wanted to ask If one can combat bad translators by helping them to become good ones, so one can also combat bad translation agencies by helping them become good ones. After all, the agencies are also run by human beings just like the translators are. I know I know the agencies are very reluctant for change but so some translators are.

In my honest opinion I am doing no wrong to anyone, am I?

I am not doing any wrong to those "budding" translators, as I fully discuss with them the rates which i am offering to them, once they get agreed or get convinced, then only I proceed, and eventually they get paid for their work at the time we agree upon.
You can see our agency blueboard record here http://www.proz.com/blueboard/6641, where more than 90% of the translators are satisfied with us as far as our dealing with them, our procedures, as well as payment issues are concerned. I am proud to be one of the few Indian agencies who like to maintain the relationship with the translators as well or more than their clientele.

And yes, the list at this link represents just less than 10% of the satisfied translators we have dealt with in last one decade of existence. There are indeed more translators there who are quite happy with us, though not given any opinion on the blueboard, however, having been working with us for as long as since last one decade successfully and happily.

I am not doing any harm to my clients as well, as I first fully understood that the text is relatively easy, easier than any technical, legal, or general text, as the source text was just email conversations between employees of certain companies, which I thought, can easily be managed by the type of translators I have mentioned above. Moreover, I have sent first few files to the client, they said they were good. So the problem solved. Even if, my client finds some group of documents being translated by a particular translator is not up to the mark, I will immediately, either tell that translator to edit/proofread his/her translation by oneself or by someone else, or I will get that group of documents done by any other translator in the list I made from the positive responses I have got after posting the job.

I am also not doing any harm to those established translators out there. As I know, there are plenty of works/projects/clients in the market, in all domains and in all areas of the world. And I am more than sure that, established and experienced translators are always busier and richer than their student counterparts. Such jobs are not at all any threat to them at any point of time, past, present, or future.

Let me tell you that it is not that our agency have never found and offered good rate projects. We have better rate projects then the lower ones… But can’t it be possible that certain clients/projects can be limited to such "budding" section of translators? Is it not fair if such "budding" section of translators is being offered lower rates than their experienced counterparts, as such project demands less experience and professionalism than other kind of projects? The overall number of “budding” translators are growing, and so is the number of professional and established translators, and then, so is the volume of the work is increasing too. So where is the threat to anyone?

The well known clients, who have very important projects, require experienced and established translators, and they get so. On the other hand, there are the clients, who have easier projects and/or want their projects to be done at very economical rates, so they don’t mind such less established, newly introduced translators getting their project done. And the agencies like us, earn their own share by making these two requirements get solved. So where is the harm? Is it not a win-win situation for all?

No matter how hard you endeavour to make such "budding" translators become mature ones; no matter how quickly they become so by their own experience by the passing time, but I would like to tell from my experience that there is not going to be dearth of such newly born translators, only the name will change; and I think there is no harm at all to anyone if certain project demands such people on account of having lower rate from such group of people.

To put it more simply, an established company making any kind product will not go out of business, only because some newly born company has started making same kind of products and selling it at half of the rate of the establish company's products. Yea, it may create some completion, but that is bound to be. It happens in every field, every profession, every business; one can’t cease it.

A small favour which I did to those translators who never want to work at lower rate at any cost, if you can read that job post here http://www.proz.com/job/238549, I wrote in the beginning “This job is mainly for budding translators of Spanish into English language-pair, as the rate being expected is quite on lower side. Therefore, established translators may not read on and apply…”.

This must have helped them to save a bit of time by stopping them from reading the entire post as this project was not for them. Still if such job posts are irritating and unbearable to them, I urge Proz.com staff to make such kind of filter through which the translators can be sorted out by the criteria of their rates as well. (Currently this facility is not there, I can search through the criteria of language-pair, location, education, CAT tools, etc. etc., but not by the range of rates the translators offer). If this facility will be there, I would be able to send a bulk mail to the translators of a certain rate-range only, and that will eventually help agencies as well as the translators alike. I fail to understand why such sorting system has not yet been put in place till date.

Though I am very disappointed of being labelled as one of the bad agencies here, but I think such forums sometimes are opened out of sheer curiosity and taking the opinion of others in this regard. If the intension of carrying this forum is about discussing that the job-posts, like that of mine, will make established translators unpopular, I think there is no truth in that. The best will always be better than the better, and the better will always be better than the good, and mere an agency like me can't make this fact irrelevant.

And at the end, I really thank you for reading this topic. Also, I heartily apologies, if my job post or this topic has hurt anyone directly or indirectly, as my intention is not to do so but to put my opinion in this regard.

Happy Translating!

Vivek

[Edited at 2008-03-15 10:47]
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Deborah do Carmo
Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:55
Dutch to English
+ ...
Sorry you interpreted it that way Mar 15, 2008

Henry Hinds wrote:

I do not care for your insults and I do not care to carry on some kind of battle with you.



Henry,

Wasn't drawing any battle lines. Or trying to insult you for that matter. Was genuinely baffled.

I just fail to see how being overly cynical about something that - by your own admission - doesn't even affect you directly can be construed as "help(ful)".

I seem to have struck a nerve, my apologies.

Have a good weekend anyhow
Debs

PS: One simple request - you keep on referring to me for some reason as "Lawyer". Could I ask you - if you ever "speak" to me again, that is - to use my full user name please (After all, I don't refer to you as just Hen, do I?).



[Edited at 2008-03-15 13:22]


 
Henry Hinds
Henry Hinds  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:55
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
In memoriam
Language Aide Mar 15, 2008

Thanks so much for you reply, as far as I have seen it is the only one that has ever come from an agency in discussions of this kind, and it is certainly very complete. When you get opinions from both sides, the discussion is also much more complete. I would hope it would stimulate further opinions from colleagues.

Such contact could also help us transform not only bad translators into good ones, but also bad agencies into good ones. Or if "bad" is to strong, let us merely say those
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Thanks so much for you reply, as far as I have seen it is the only one that has ever come from an agency in discussions of this kind, and it is certainly very complete. When you get opinions from both sides, the discussion is also much more complete. I would hope it would stimulate further opinions from colleagues.

Such contact could also help us transform not only bad translators into good ones, but also bad agencies into good ones. Or if "bad" is to strong, let us merely say those having whatever deficiencies, and there can be many on both sides.

The issue seems to be that in many ways our profession appears to be suffering from downgrading due to lack of professionism from many people in the field, both agencies or outsourcers and translators. From that there also appears to be a downward trend in prices and working conditions. This is something that does not affect those of us who are well-established, but it does affect those who are "budding" or trying to enter the field.

Then of course there are the end clients who pay for and receive the work. Are they being satisfied by merely paying low prices, or are they also concerned about the quality of the work they are receiving? Do they have any way of knowing the quality of the work they are receiving? Are they going to come back to you?

I would also ask the same questions of you, the intermediary, who may not know the languages involved. Do you really know what you are getting? Or do you only know whether or not the translator delivered, and the translator only knows whether or not he/she got paid?

Translation is not an easy task, and taking on any job can be somewhat likened to jumping into a wild ocean not knowing how to swim and without a life jacket. It is rather hard to define any kind of translation work that could be termed "easy". It is all hard and requires very good language knowledge and skill.

So maybe we can have some good discussion there. Time is short for all of us, but it is worthwhile.
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Jeff Whittaker
Jeff Whittaker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:55
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
May not Mar 16, 2008

So, what you meant by "may not apply" was:
"...Therefore, established translators may not **want to*** read on and apply…”.
rather than:
"Therefore, established translators must not read on and apply…”.


 
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At least they are honest: "job is mainly for budding translators... rate... on lower side"






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