Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Portuguese term or phrase:
aí presente
English translation:
[who signed] in the presence of (see explanation)
Added to glossary by
clamarmovic
Jul 26, 2005 19:19
18 yrs ago
3 viewers *
Portuguese term
Works in: Spanish to English
aí presente
Portuguese to English
Bus/Financial
Law (general)
Delivery Affidavit
in a police report. Entire sentence reads:
"E as testemunhas infra-assinadas, ai presente o Senhor XXXX, RF, xxxxx, SP, pela misma autoridade i he foi feita a entrega de ..."
"E as testemunhas infra-assinadas, ai presente o Senhor XXXX, RF, xxxxx, SP, pela misma autoridade i he foi feita a entrega de ..."
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +1 | [who signed] in the presence of (see explanation) |
Muriel Vasconcellos
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| 5 +5 | therein present |
rhandler
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| 4 +3 | being present |
Amilcar
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| 5 +1 | also present |
Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X)
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Proposed translations
+1
6 days
Muriel Vasconcellos
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Each translation a gem!
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
Works in: Spanish to English, Portuguese to English
Related KudoZ points
:
26
Portuguese term (edited):
a� presente
Selected
[who signed] in the presence of (see explanation)
"Therein" is nonsense. I'm surprised that so many colleagues agreed.
I agree with Jane that "there" isn't necessary, but I think Mr. X is a witness to the testimony, not the crime.
My guess is that the writer is thinking of "testemunha" in the sense of both "witness" and "testimony." The translation would be:
And the undersigned witnesses, [who signed] in the presence of ..."
Leaving out "who signed" makes it grammatically vague, but the idea is still there, much as the writer probably wrote it in the original.
I agree with Jane that "there" isn't necessary, but I think Mr. X is a witness to the testimony, not the crime.
My guess is that the writer is thinking of "testemunha" in the sense of both "witness" and "testimony." The translation would be:
And the undersigned witnesses, [who signed] in the presence of ..."
Leaving out "who signed" makes it grammatically vague, but the idea is still there, much as the writer probably wrote it in the original.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Jane Lamb-Ru (X)
: Thank you Muriel..It's quite frustrating ....in the presence of....I wish the poster had posted the entire sentence..
7 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "I really appreciate the efforts and comments of all those who participated in this "forum". I am sorry my question generated such negative reactions. I waited a few days to gain a better perspective. I also did some research, and I think this is the best answer given the context. I did provide much of the sentence. The only word missing at the end of the sentence was "vehicle". Although I realized many of you agreed with "therein present", I could not find many examples of this usage in actual legal documents. However, I appreciate Rhandler's suggestion and efforts to assist me.
A personal suggestion to all participating in these Kudoz forums: Please let's try to be more tolerant, corteous and professional with each other. There is really no need for personal attacks. Language is very complex and there are a lot of things to take into account. We should view this as an opportunity to learn, to be humble and to be willing to listen and consider suggestions. Again my sincerest gratitude. Clara "
+5
1 hr
Portuguese term (edited):
a� presente
therein present
This is the equivalent expression, look:
Creation of Ulster King of Arms (1552)
... by the hands of the Treasurer and our other officers therein present at such time, in equal portions each year on Easter and Michaelmas, along with such ...
www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/ulster1552.htm
Idle Forums - Happy new year!
A very fortunate side effect of his exhibitionism is that all men therein present become a tad more confident in their masculinity -- him not being in the ...
http://forums.idlethumbs.net/archive/index.php/t-1683.html
Notice that the list of nominated people is not additional to others, but it's a nomination of who was there. No "also" involved.
Creation of Ulster King of Arms (1552)
... by the hands of the Treasurer and our other officers therein present at such time, in equal portions each year on Easter and Michaelmas, along with such ...
www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/ulster1552.htm
Idle Forums - Happy new year!
A very fortunate side effect of his exhibitionism is that all men therein present become a tad more confident in their masculinity -- him not being in the ...
http://forums.idlethumbs.net/archive/index.php/t-1683.html
Notice that the list of nominated people is not additional to others, but it's a nomination of who was there. No "also" involved.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X)
: Rhandler: your second thingie is a blog! People in blogs and similar sites use all kinds of language...I cannot convince you...too bad...I am sure all your native Protuguese speakers know English better than me..:) whoops than I do...
22 mins
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Your explanation agrees with my answer, but you selected the wrong option. As to being idiomatic, my examples speak by themselves. // Not all, but some native Portuguese speakers could teach many things to some native English speakers.
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| agree |
Claudio Mazotti
: sounds nice to me...
38 mins
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Thank you, klausinSP. As a native speaker, you understand the original expression, of course
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| agree |
Lincoln Silveira (X)
: legal terminology preferred... adverb against adverb, convey meaning to insiders better
43 mins
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Thank you, Lincoln. Very oportune, your remark.
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| agree |
Ana Pacheco
: it's a police report, formal document, i think it's better.
2 hrs
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Thank you, anapacheco. The legalese applies.
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| agree |
Henrique Magalhaes
13 hrs
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Thank you, Henrique
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| agree |
Claudia Costa
: Definitions of therein on the Web: (formal) in or into that thing or PLACE > wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
1 day 8 mins
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Thank you, Claudia. Good additional reference http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
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| agree |
Amilcar
: Not best transl by me, but "present therein" is perfectly good En for "present in that location". "Therein" is simply hifalutin lingo for "in there". Problem is, some people think that if a certain turn of phrase is not used in their kitchen, it is wrong.
1 day 2 hrs
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Thank you, Amilcar.
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| neutral |
Muriel Vasconcellos
: It's interesting to see that your answers "speak by themselves"!
3 days 12 hrs
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I'm not sure of having understood this comment of yours.
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+1
22 mins
Portuguese term (edited):
a� presente
also present
no there..even though it means that
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Note added at 22 mins (2005-07-26 19:41:44 GMT)
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and Mr. XXX, also present, etc
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Note added at 2 hrs 5 mins (2005-07-26 21:24:26 GMT)
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The justification for also..
The witnesses were there...they were present, so was Mr. XXX. that is the idiomatic way to say..one way
Therein cannot be used for persons who are At Places..
One does not say in English, Mr. X therein...
But..that\'s OK...with me...enjoy...
E as testemunhas infra-assinadas, ai presente o Senhor XXXX, RF, xxxxx, SP, pela misma autoridade i he foi feita a entrega de ...\"
And the undersigned witnesses, who were present along with Mr. XXX...OR
The undersigned witnesses, and Mr. X, also present [ie at the place where the witnesses GAve Their Statement]
This is a translation clear and simple of the Meaning..
Good day...
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Note added at 2 hrs 7 mins (2005-07-26 21:26:19 GMT)
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ai in the Portuguese means: Mr. X was at the same place as the witnesses.....
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Note added at 2 hrs 11 mins (2005-07-26 21:30:23 GMT)
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Personal Comments Not Allowed on Proz: keeping a record:
Answer by rhandler\"
Why \"also\"? Also means \"também\", and this is not what is being said. // Have you just created this rule? My examples show the opposite. // You should have your ears examined! 1 hr 11 mins
> Let\'s get something straight here. This is baby Portuguese, OK..ai = there ..but that would not be how to translate it. And therein means In a Text...Frankly...Look, Rhandler, you have it your way...I don\'t mind...but it sounds ridiculous to my ear... []
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Note added at 8 hrs 37 mins (2005-07-27 03:56:40 GMT)
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Note to Rhandler: I really can\'t believe how silly this is. It is absurd.
All of the ethics of translation are being twisted in the Port-English Kudos. One is supposed to translate into one\'s native language. Furthermore, your methods is wrong. You don\'t look stuff up on google as proof. That is not proof. Proof is in being able to show one can translate. First understand the source text, then try to find a way to say that in the target text. Not say...oh this words is the same as that word in English. Then look it up in English and say, see it\'s the same.
That is an unethical way to do translation. Very often leading to opposite meanings. But if you haven\'t studied translation, you can\'t know that, right? You think you can Just Google or say, look it\'s the same word in English...
So, have fun. Take it over. I could care less.
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Note added at 22 mins (2005-07-26 19:41:44 GMT)
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and Mr. XXX, also present, etc
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Note added at 2 hrs 5 mins (2005-07-26 21:24:26 GMT)
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The justification for also..
The witnesses were there...they were present, so was Mr. XXX. that is the idiomatic way to say..one way
Therein cannot be used for persons who are At Places..
One does not say in English, Mr. X therein...
But..that\'s OK...with me...enjoy...
E as testemunhas infra-assinadas, ai presente o Senhor XXXX, RF, xxxxx, SP, pela misma autoridade i he foi feita a entrega de ...\"
And the undersigned witnesses, who were present along with Mr. XXX...OR
The undersigned witnesses, and Mr. X, also present [ie at the place where the witnesses GAve Their Statement]
This is a translation clear and simple of the Meaning..
Good day...
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Note added at 2 hrs 7 mins (2005-07-26 21:26:19 GMT)
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ai in the Portuguese means: Mr. X was at the same place as the witnesses.....
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Note added at 2 hrs 11 mins (2005-07-26 21:30:23 GMT)
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Personal Comments Not Allowed on Proz: keeping a record:
Answer by rhandler\"
Why \"also\"? Also means \"também\", and this is not what is being said. // Have you just created this rule? My examples show the opposite. // You should have your ears examined! 1 hr 11 mins
> Let\'s get something straight here. This is baby Portuguese, OK..ai = there ..but that would not be how to translate it. And therein means In a Text...Frankly...Look, Rhandler, you have it your way...I don\'t mind...but it sounds ridiculous to my ear... []
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Note added at 8 hrs 37 mins (2005-07-27 03:56:40 GMT)
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Note to Rhandler: I really can\'t believe how silly this is. It is absurd.
All of the ethics of translation are being twisted in the Port-English Kudos. One is supposed to translate into one\'s native language. Furthermore, your methods is wrong. You don\'t look stuff up on google as proof. That is not proof. Proof is in being able to show one can translate. First understand the source text, then try to find a way to say that in the target text. Not say...oh this words is the same as that word in English. Then look it up in English and say, see it\'s the same.
That is an unethical way to do translation. Very often leading to opposite meanings. But if you haven\'t studied translation, you can\'t know that, right? You think you can Just Google or say, look it\'s the same word in English...
So, have fun. Take it over. I could care less.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Terje Ostgaard
10 mins
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| disagree |
rhandler
: Why "also"? Also means "também", and this is not what is being said. // Have you just created this rule? My examples show the opposite. // You should have your ears examined!// Look who's talking about ethics!!!
1 hr
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Let's get something straight here. This is baby Portuguese, OK..ai = there ..but that would not be how to translate it. And therein means In a Text...Frankly...Look, Rhandler, you have it your way...I don't mind...but it sounds ridiculous to my ear...
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| agree |
Muriel Vasconcellos
: I agree that "therein" is nonsense, and I have another suggestion similar to yours.
6 days
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+3
1 day 3 hrs
Portuguese term (edited):
a� presente
being present
Pt is faulty, but it seems certain that the intended meaning is something like: E perante as testemunhas ... estando aí presente ... Or: ... testemunham que, estando aí presente f., pela mesma autoridade lhe ...
An omission like that of estando in estando aí presente is not uncommon.
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Note added at 1 day 3 hrs 23 mins (2005-07-27 22:42:29 GMT)
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About \"therein\" all one needs is to consult, e.g., the Am Heritage:
there·in
ADVERB: In that place, time, or thing. In that circumstance or respect.
It does not say \"in that place in the text\". This is En 101 in Grammar School.
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Note added at 1 day 3 hrs 51 mins (2005-07-27 23:10:38 GMT)
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About Ms Lamb-Ruiz mock deontological rant, she should talk. One of the worst vices of argumentation (also called intellectual dishonesty) is the \"I am right because I am X\", wherein (!) appeal to X, though possibly relevant to one extent or another, amounts to special pleading. Ms Lamb-Ruiz does it ALL THE FRIGGING TIME. It is annoying, and detrimental to KudoZ, because she is far from always right; and askers, swayed by X, \"seniority\", etc., often select obviously wrong, imprecise or inferior answers. I will say, Ms Lamb-Ruiz has a significantly inflated view of her infallibility: original Pt is often misunderstood; a feeling for register and style (in En!!!!) is badly lacking; and, worst of all, she often rejects as WronG what is merely not conversational kitchen En. Sorry for my own somewhat unkind rant, but I am fed up with the presumptuousness.
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Note added at 2 days 2 hrs 0 min (2005-07-28 21:19:22 GMT)
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Not wanting to be a pest or somebody\'s monkey on the back myself ... With the utmost goodwill and \"patching\" freedom I cannot read \"also present\", or \"who were present along with\" -- whomever -- into the original. (If aí really means anything specific, and it may very well, it will be some place mentioned earlier in the report.) Worse, the idea that the simultaneous presence of Mr P with the witnesses was at the time they gave their statement is plain unwarranted: the text clearly implies that they were witnesses to the receipt of whatever Mr P received from some officer. So what about understanding the original? What has happened lately to glass houses and the throwing of stones?
About the rule that \"therein\" CannoT be used with people in actual places: it simply does not exist; and I chalenge its author, who made it out of whole cloth, to prove otherwise. There is no shortage of combinations of \"people\" (and other \"people\" words) with \"therein\" (a place), via \"living\", \"being found\", \"[being] present\", etc. (Not in regular conversational En, of course, where \"therein\" could only be used in jest.)
Also, complaining about personal remarks?!?!?! Wow!!!!
That takes NervE!! I cannot help admiring that much pluck!!
An omission like that of estando in estando aí presente is not uncommon.
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Note added at 1 day 3 hrs 23 mins (2005-07-27 22:42:29 GMT)
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About \"therein\" all one needs is to consult, e.g., the Am Heritage:
there·in
ADVERB: In that place, time, or thing. In that circumstance or respect.
It does not say \"in that place in the text\". This is En 101 in Grammar School.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 3 hrs 51 mins (2005-07-27 23:10:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
About Ms Lamb-Ruiz mock deontological rant, she should talk. One of the worst vices of argumentation (also called intellectual dishonesty) is the \"I am right because I am X\", wherein (!) appeal to X, though possibly relevant to one extent or another, amounts to special pleading. Ms Lamb-Ruiz does it ALL THE FRIGGING TIME. It is annoying, and detrimental to KudoZ, because she is far from always right; and askers, swayed by X, \"seniority\", etc., often select obviously wrong, imprecise or inferior answers. I will say, Ms Lamb-Ruiz has a significantly inflated view of her infallibility: original Pt is often misunderstood; a feeling for register and style (in En!!!!) is badly lacking; and, worst of all, she often rejects as WronG what is merely not conversational kitchen En. Sorry for my own somewhat unkind rant, but I am fed up with the presumptuousness.
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Note added at 2 days 2 hrs 0 min (2005-07-28 21:19:22 GMT)
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Not wanting to be a pest or somebody\'s monkey on the back myself ... With the utmost goodwill and \"patching\" freedom I cannot read \"also present\", or \"who were present along with\" -- whomever -- into the original. (If aí really means anything specific, and it may very well, it will be some place mentioned earlier in the report.) Worse, the idea that the simultaneous presence of Mr P with the witnesses was at the time they gave their statement is plain unwarranted: the text clearly implies that they were witnesses to the receipt of whatever Mr P received from some officer. So what about understanding the original? What has happened lately to glass houses and the throwing of stones?
About the rule that \"therein\" CannoT be used with people in actual places: it simply does not exist; and I chalenge its author, who made it out of whole cloth, to prove otherwise. There is no shortage of combinations of \"people\" (and other \"people\" words) with \"therein\" (a place), via \"living\", \"being found\", \"[being] present\", etc. (Not in regular conversational En, of course, where \"therein\" could only be used in jest.)
Also, complaining about personal remarks?!?!?! Wow!!!!
That takes NervE!! I cannot help admiring that much pluck!!
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
nonogogo (X)
: One does not say a "present therein" referring to People In A Place...Of course, one can say: "The Furniture Therein" ie referring to objects...I am reporting you to the moderator.
14 hrs
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One NEVER says therein seriously, one WRITES it when the register, custom, etc. call for it. Fine about the moderator.
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| agree |
Jane Lamb-Ru (X)
: I repeat my comments on therein: dictionaries do not translate..people do and no matter how annoying it may be to everyone, therein is not used for people in legal/administrative texts to refer to where people are physically located. In fact, it's funny..
20 hrs
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I agree with dictionaries not translating (not to mention "Google refs" - There'S somth I find ReallY FunnY); but not with your restrictive usage criteria. Rare (therein ITSELF is rare) is not WronG, or FunnY, for well schooled people, given right contxt.
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| agree |
rhandler
: Your two added notes are very opportune. Your answer should be used by the asker in her translation. The asker's comments on being tolerant, courteous and professional with each other are also opportune. Can you imagine YKW being humble?
5 days
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Not at a level worth bothering with. I have seen everything, e.g., trad "ajuramt" where each "should / would" (auxiliary of the conditional) was translated to Pt by "deveria". Compared with that, I guess not understanding the original is almost OK. :)
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