| A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3 4] > | Company remains unmoved on need for professional translators Téma indítója: Jessica Klingberg
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Laurent KRAULAND (X) 
Franciaország
Local time: 06:24
francia - német
+ ...
Williamson wrote:
Managers don't think in dogmas or feelings.
Only in figures.
If management perceives translation as a costly menial nuissance, which can be done by management assistants, it is theirs to decide how to allocate their budget.
[Edited at 2010-06-09 08:05 GMT]
Managers don't think in dogmas: wrong. It is a dogma that human translation must be more expensive than the plan laid out here.
Managers don't think in terms of feelings: wrong again. This manager has the feeling that he is going the right path.
Of course, managers may allocate their budget every way they want (and we all surely know of cases in which "the genius idea of the century" revealed itself to be a complete fiasco, i.e. a loss for the company).
Unquestioned submission to authority is still a strong pattern in the Western world, it seems. I wonder how many real geniuses (for example, the Canadian pianist and composer Glenn Gould) could have shown their uniqueness had they submitted themselves to the dogmas of their time.
[Edited at 2010-06-09 10:02 GMT]
| | | | Attila Piróth
Franciaország
Local time: 06:24
ProZ.com-tag
angol - magyar
+ ...
| Disagree with Samuel's suggestion | Jun 9, 2010 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
In this scenario, the company would get 4 retired employees and hire a translation consultant team (consisting of a trainer and a proofreader) to manage them (so the company pays 6 people).
The consultant (you) will work two or three hours a day to check up on the translation efforts once a day, visiting the "translators" and helping them learn what to watch out for. The proofreader will proofread all four translators' efforts of the previous day, so the proofreading task will probably take longer. The proofreader isn't responsible for making the text perfect but to help watch out for inconsistency and blunders, and to relay this information to the trainer, who will explain it to the translators.
What would the cost of such an operation be?
I'm afraid Samuel's suggestion can backfire, big time.
If you present this workflow, you are suggesting that the result will be acceptable. You are also making assumptions about the amount of time required to polish the ex-employees' work (you don't know anything about what they will produce). First, the estimate can be pretty much off, and second, the work itself can be very frustrating. Also: the ex-employees may realize after some time that this is not their cup of tea, proceed at a lower speed than expected, or simply get fed up – how is this risk handled?
This calculation makes sense the final cost in this workflow is considerably higher than in your own initial proposal. It can then be an argument against this workflow. But if the difference is little – or can be made little by, say, eliminating the trainer – it will be difficult to explain why one translator should do it instead of a team, which includes subject-matter experts as well as a translator who will take care of the final proofing. Including anything like "The proofreader isn't responsible for making the text perfect" is particularly dangerous, I feel – since by suggesting this alternative workflow you imply that the quality will be acceptable.
Kind regards,
Attila
| | | | | Sourcing and scissors | Jun 9, 2010 |
Williamson wrote:
The native dogma: As if only native speakers are able to translate into English. Get real.
The second language of most Germans is English, isn't it? Given German "Gründlichkeit" und "Pünktlichkeit" some Germans have attained a high level of English suitable to translate from German into English. English is not the "property" of native speakers of English only.
Thank goodness for attitudes like this! I make a fine living cleaning up the messes that companies have on their hands after giving work to these kinds of "translators."
Google translation doesn't threaten me any more than a barber is threatened by home haircuts.
| | | | Woodstock (X)
Németország
Local time: 06:24
német - angol
+ ...
Williamson wrote:
@Woodstock: You might have an inkling, but that' s guessing. I'll intend to update my profile in autumn. That way you don't have to guess any more.
With regard to idiomatic use of English, that depends on the linguistic code (Google: Basil Bernstein).
By the way: is it non-native speaker or non-nativespeaker? I prefer to use the first.
[Edited at 2010-06-09 08:05 GMT]
I won't waste another minute thinking about it, believe me!
I also prefer spelling "nuisance" with one 's', as well as nativespeaker in one word. I don't really care what you prefer, as we don't work together and never will, so the point is moot.
Edited to add: By the way, conjecture = guess, in case you didn't know, which is exactly what I said. And you might want a nativespeaker to check the one and only sentence in your profile, in which I spotted 2 errors.
[Edited at 2010-06-09 13:45 GMT]
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Williamson
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 05:24
flamand - angol
+ ...
| Please explain. | Jun 9, 2010 |
Since when do you write a noun and an adjective in 1 word in English?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Hollandia
Local time: 06:24
Tag (2006 óta)
angol - afrikaans
+ ...
Attila Piróth wrote:
If you present this workflow, you are suggesting that the result will be acceptable.
Nothing of the sort.
The purpose of the consulting team is to improve the result over what it would have been if the consulting team was not present. The purpose is not to make the translation perfect or even acceptable. The client has already indicated that he is not interested in a perfect product (he is, after all, contemplating using Google Translate with post-editing by four bilingual employees who are also very busy at other tasks).
I would not attempt such a consulting route if the client had any expectations of perfection, and it should be stated clearly to him as well.
You are also making assumptions about the amount of time required to polish the ex-employees' work (you don't know anything about what they will produce).
If the goal is a perfect translation, then the time required can't be finite. But if the time set aside for proofreading is finite, the goal can't be a perfect translation. Yes, that sounds confusing, but what I mean is that your proofreader can either say "I'll work until it's perfect" or he can say "I'll work until 8 hours have passed". If the latter, it simply means that he should adjust his degree of carefulness to the amount of time available.
In my proposal, the purpose of the proofreader is not to polish the text to perfection, but to perform a task of catching possible errors (and he can't catch them all). If the file has 100 errors and the proofreader can identify and remove 80 of them, the file still has 20 errors in it but the file is also very much improved over what it would have been if there had been no proofreader.
If the client understands that the role of the trainer and proofreader is not to improve the text but rather to "improve" the client's translators (gradually over time), then there is nothing wrong with my proposal.
Also: the ex-employees may realize after some time that this is not their cup of tea, proceed at a lower speed than expected, or simply get fed up – how is this risk handled?
This is the client's risk -- it is his translators, not yours. If the proofreader can account for the amount of work he did, and if the trainer is present for 2 hours a day doing training, it means they can show that they are doing the work they are being paid for, regardless of the attitude of the translators.
This calculation makes sense the final cost in this workflow is considerably higher than in your own initial proposal. It can then be an argument against this workflow.
My assumption is that the OP will not be able to convince the client to pay her original price, even if she can convince him of the fact that he can't just use bilingual people to do the translation. So my proposal is not a replacement for the OP's original quote, but a compromise which will only work if the client can be made to see the advantages of it.
But if the difference is little – or can be made little by, say, eliminating the trainer – it will be difficult to explain why one translator should do it instead of a team, which includes subject-matter experts as well as a translator who will take care of the final proofing.
Assume the OP's rate is 15c per word or USD 50 per hour. Assume the client wants to pay his translators 3c per word. Assume there are 200 000 words. Assume the client thinks the idea of using retired workers is a brilliant idea, and he believes you when you say his translators can do 2000 words per day. That's 25 days.
* Original quote: USD 30 000 for 200 000 words
TOTAL: USD 30 000
* 3c per translator = USD 1500 per translator for 50 000 words
* 25 x 2 hours per day for trainer = USD 2500 for the trainer
* 25 x 6 hours per day for proofreader = USD 7500 for the proofreader
TOTAL: USD 16 000
If the client uses only his translators and does not use the consulting team, then it's only USD 6000. So if the client remains unconvinced after the first two days that his translators are not up to match, he pays only USD 6 000. If he sees the error of his ways within a few days, it will cost him USD 16 000 in total, but he will get a much better product.
Including anything like "The proofreader isn't responsible for making the text perfect" is particularly dangerous, I feel – since by suggesting this alternative workflow you imply that the quality will be acceptable.
Perhaps I should have made it clearer that I don't think this workflow will produce a translation that is acceptable. Perhaps I should not call the proofreader a proofreader. Call him a secondary training consultant who works with the primary training consultant. Their job is to train the translators, not to ensure that the end-product is a good one.
| | | | John Fossey
Kanada
Local time: 00:24
Tag (2008 óta)
francia - angol
+ ...
| Trouble ahead, don't let it be your problem | Jun 9, 2010 |
Woodstock wrote:
@Jessica - As frustrating as it is, you have to let it go. Maybe the CEO will eventually figure it out that the work by non-professionals takes a LOT longer and is not of professional quality, but also be thankful your husband is not planning on staying there forever... just in case the company's expansion plans tank.
I agree. The problem with this scenario is that unless top management and company owners buy into doing the job properly, there's not really any way to make it work. They will learn, but it might have to be the hard way and it might take a long time, and it could also be very expensive.
They could be warned that Google Translate and other MT can get things completely wrong, and this could have major repercussions to the company, especially in the litigation-hungry US.
For example, I don't know about German, but in French, Google Translate consistently mistranslates the "ne..... que....." combination as "not" instead of "only". Imagine publishing a document stating that the user of a product may "not" do something, when the original meaning was that they may "only" do something. The lawyers will smell business ahead.
| | | | Attila Piróth
Franciaország
Local time: 06:24
ProZ.com-tag
angol - magyar
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote:
Perhaps I should have made it clearer that I don't think this workflow will produce a translation that is acceptable. Perhaps I should not call the proofreader a proofreader. Call him a secondary training consultant who works with the primary training consultant. Their job is to train the translators, not to ensure that the end-product is a good one.
Hi Samuel,
Thanks, it is clearer now.
But I don't get the purpose of this exercise: why propose the CEO to blow 16 grand if the workflow won't produce an acceptable translation? I can hardly imagine that they would be interested at all in training the translators: this looks like a one-off job. By submitting such a proposal you imply that it is possible to train them to a certain (sufficient?) extent.
Second: why would the original poster be interested in reworking bad quality translation as a proof-reader? By agreeing to this scheme, how would she know if the translators just decided to feed everything into google, and then not modify anything?
Third: if a professional translator proposes this workflow AND participates in it, she will be very severely criticized when the impact of the translation turns out to be zero. Much better to stay away from the beginning, wouldn't you agree?
Fourth, taking your original figures, which are good as ballpark figures, you have "3c per translator". I think that a workflow proposal containing this figure, submitted by a professional translator, would be justly criticized.
Would you give your name to it? I certainly would not.
Best regards,
Attila
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| Unprecedentedhappening | Jun 9, 2010 |
Williamson wrote:
Since when do you write a noun and an adjective in 1 word in English?
Blackberry
Bluebird
Ladykiller
Dutchman ( )
Goalkeeper
I agree, it looks odd to write nativespeaker, but hey ho, life goes on...
| | | | XX789 (X)
Hollandia
Local time: 06:24
angol - holland
+ ...
| You can't convince people | Jun 9, 2010 |
How often did you manage to convince a Liberal that he should vote on the Republicans or vice versa? How often did you manage to convert a Muslim to Christianity or vice versa?
Only people can convince themselves. You can't. Let it rest and laugh at them when the complaints start flooding in. If they haven't gone bankrupt yet, they will find their way back to you. Meanwhile focus on clients whom already have convinced themselves.
I have learnt that trying to convince pe... See more How often did you manage to convince a Liberal that he should vote on the Republicans or vice versa? How often did you manage to convert a Muslim to Christianity or vice versa?
Only people can convince themselves. You can't. Let it rest and laugh at them when the complaints start flooding in. If they haven't gone bankrupt yet, they will find their way back to you. Meanwhile focus on clients whom already have convinced themselves.
I have learnt that trying to convince people is lost energy, that could be spent better.
When companies do business with me, it's because they love me and want me. As soon as clients feel you "forced" them to buy your product, they won't be happy with it anyway, no matter how good your service is. You'll only get yourself into trouble.
This strategy will also strengthen your negotiating position.
[Edited at 2010-06-09 16:24 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Nothing to add here but would like to thank all of you who contributed to this in- depth analysis of a truly "real life" situation. It makes for fascinating reading.
| | | | Tom in London
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 05:24
Tag (2008 óta)
olasz - angol
Woodstock wrote:
And you might want a nativespeaker to check the one and only sentence in your profile, in which I spotted 2 errors.
...and you might like to correct "nativespeaker", which is a word that does not exist, to "native speaker".
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Nancy Ernst
Egyesült Államok
Local time: 00:24
francia - angol
+ ...
| Mindset of bilingual companies - Translation is easy | Jun 9, 2010 |
I sympathize with you. This is an all too common scenario.
Many large companies both US and other do not believe translation is very difficult and feel that their own bilingual employees can do the job either on or off the clock.
I have encountered this many times in manufacturing and know of at least one major aerospace company that has employees use online translator tools to do their work. Needless to say, there are many issues with this.
I believe the r... See more I sympathize with you. This is an all too common scenario.
Many large companies both US and other do not believe translation is very difficult and feel that their own bilingual employees can do the job either on or off the clock.
I have encountered this many times in manufacturing and know of at least one major aerospace company that has employees use online translator tools to do their work. Needless to say, there are many issues with this.
I believe the reason companies don't want to hire translators is they do not want to feel dependent on them. They want to be able to control the translation process themselves and not have to rely on one person or one company.
I wish you the best of luck. Don't take it personally. It is simply a trend.
Thanks
Nancy Brady
BeTranslated USA ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
Egyesült Államok
Local time: 23:24
görög - angol
+ ...
The project you' re talking about is too large. After approx. 20,000 words some will give up frustrated. It's very difficult for amateurs to sit on a computer after their regular work and translate such an amount of words.
You'll have:
- Some awkward expressions (amateurs are not aware of what they type when they' re tired).
- Inconsistencies (amateurs do not even know what "consistency" is in a translation.
- Mistranslations - amateurs are ve... See more The project you' re talking about is too large. After approx. 20,000 words some will give up frustrated. It's very difficult for amateurs to sit on a computer after their regular work and translate such an amount of words.
You'll have:
- Some awkward expressions (amateurs are not aware of what they type when they' re tired).
- Inconsistencies (amateurs do not even know what "consistency" is in a translation.
- Mistranslations - amateurs are very impatient. When they face a problem they'll just stick the first word that comes to mind and "presto".
It's one thing when you change a lightbulb yourself, or a wall-plug, but a completely different thing when you need to re-wire the entire house... then you need an electrician.
Amateurs do not have Patience, Consistency, and Quality Control in such large projects. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Williamson
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 05:24
flamand - angol
+ ...
| English grammar. | Jun 10, 2010 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Williamson wrote:
Since when do you write a noun and an adjective in 1 word in English? Blackberry Bluebird Ladykiller Dutchman ( ) Goalkeeper I agree, it looks odd to write nativespeaker, but hey ho, life goes on...
Between [].
The examples, you give are compounds (and a brand name).
"Nativespeaker" is a mistake, plain and simple.
Why? "Native" is an adjective and "speaker" a "noun", with "non" a determinant of native, hence the - .
I admit, I am fallible and make the occasional spelling mistake when my eyes get tired, but a native (professional translator) of English should know the grammar of his "native" language, because that native language is the only substance (s)he has to "sell" and basic grammatical errors are not allowed.
It is a quarter of a century ago that I had to study comparative grammar of English, Spanish and Dutch. Now I understand why.
Back on track: If companies can avoid high costs, they will. If, like Samuel says, they can have their translation made by insiders at employees’ wages or lower costs, they will not hesitate. The same goes for interpreting. Due to a traffic-jam, I arrived late at a board-meeting. This meeting had already started and guesses who the interpreter was? The management-assistant. That is why I say, “Get real” and use the words "Ivory Tower". If a company does not want to allocate a budget to pay for an outsider, why moan on a website for translators? Life goes on.
[Edited at 2010-06-10 06:02 GMT]
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