| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Poll: Would you be willing to pay if AI started charging a fee for its services? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 22:43
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Kay Denney wrote: Justin Peterson wrote:
I guess there's a form of AI in every MT engine in every CAT, so, we already are paying for it, right?
Of course, I don't expect to receive valuable services for free, and the price I'll pay will, logically, depend on how valuable the technology is to my business When I work with a CAT tool, it's the agency who lends me a licence, and I see that the PMs systematically turn off the MT options (maybe because I refuse to do PEMT, I'm not allowed to use it if I'm being paid a proper fee for proper translation?)
On my end, I see PMs routinely switching on MT options in CAT tools (and lock them), so I constantly have to remind them to remove these, to remove the distracting chaos on a project that’s not even MTPE. One of the PMs told me they (MT segments) keep emerging even after they have switched them off in the system. Somebody is being a little pushy?
On topic: No, I wouldn’t be paying as there’s no real value.
The other day I was at a presentation (youth project) where a teacher/presenter used images created with AI. I said the images looked like AI production. They admited and said they just asked GPT to produce images based on their lecture.
The images were so out of sync with the content and the subject of the lecture that everyone in the audience was genuinely confused and there was a huge communicational gap. Unbelievable. The teacher is probably getting some pocket money to do this.
[Edited at 2024-06-12 10:35 GMT]
| | | | Alex Lichanow
Germany
Local time: 22:43
Member (2020)
English to German
+ ...
| Don't know about that | Jun 12 |
Justin Peterson wrote:
No offense intended
I laugh at MYSELF for not using MT earlier. I was also late getting a computer, a cell phone, etc.
If you're able to do all ultra-creative stuff, hats off. Yes, it's probably useless for that. For now ... ; )
JP
I gave all of it a shot once it started cropping up more and more among my clients, starting with completely "dumb" MT via NMT solutions like DeepL and up to and including the latest craze that is LLMs like ChatGPT.
Apart from DeepL, which is actually pretty solid when it comes to English-German and very easy texts (or, weirdly enough, legal copy), everything else has reliably turned out to be a MASSIVE waste of time, i.e. I could have actually completed those jobs faster in a run-of-the-mill human translation process - and made more money to boot.
MAYBE, if LLMs ever receive sufficiently good training in order to produce solid raw translation output - without any omissions, bias or outright hallucinations (a.k.a. "bullshit") -, I will give them another chance. Until then, I know that my human brain is better than any machine that is being trained on publicly available garbage data (which, by the way, no lesser than Amazon have confirmed).
Oh, and I actually regard it as a compliment if machine users call me a Luddite. It confirms that I have been doing everything right
To answer the actual poll question: Hell, no! I am yet to find any AI service that has any value for me, be it private or professional. I am using DeepL very sparsely, so while I do have an account, I have never really had a reason to go for a paid one. ChatGPT - and generative AI in general - isn't worth the server infrastructure it runs on, much less my money.
If going by today's extremely liberal definition of what constitutes an "AI", I am probably already paying by buying video games, where "AI" (not!) is used for opposing racers, enemies, monsters etc.
[Edited at 2024-06-12 11:37 GMT]
| | | | | "Transform" isn't the verb I'd use | Jun 12 |
Justin Peterson wrote: AI is unstoppable, and is going to transform translation, whether we like it or not. In a few years, anyone who said they'll never use it, or prohibited it, will be laughing at themselves for the Luddites they were : ) Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
I have no interest whatsoever in AI and anyway a growing number of my clients have now expressly forbidden the use of any AI software…
I can think of many other verbs that describe what AI is doing/going to do to translation. Nothing to do with any transformation....
| | | | | AI can't be creative? Really? | Jun 12 |
Kay Denney wrote:
The type of texts I translate have a creative component...
I asked Gemini to rewrite Kay's message in a creative manner, just to see what it could do. After about three seconds, or possibly a bit less, it gave me this:
------------------------------
"Here's a rewrite that injects creativity and challenges the translator's viewpoint:
Original Text:
The type of texts I translate have a creative component and a degree of complexity that AI absolutely cannot handle for the time being. I get plenty of compliments about my work. So I'm just going to continue as I am. I won't be using AI in a few years, I'll be retired, so I'll be decoding the true humor of the universe (not people) instead.
Creative Rewrite:
My translations are like weaving tapestries with words. Each thread, a cultural nuance, a hidden joke – a challenge even the most nimble AI would struggle with. Praise for my craft is a melody to my ears, but the symphony isn't over yet. In a few years, when I retire, I won't be facing down a machine on a translator's duel. Instead, I'll be busy translating the language of the universe, where the punchlines aren't written, but hidden in the twinkling of distant stars.
[...]"
------------------------------
I think we can agree that it has a way to go, but it's certainly something we could start working on.
I then asked it to repeat the exercise, but taking a different approach. It decided to go for a more humorous angle and a few seconds later, it offered this:
"Let's face it, translating the puns and metaphors that dance through my projects would leave any AI robot with a head-scratch emoji. Besides, the compliments on my work are like catnip to my translating soul. So, while those robots are busy learning the difference between "there" and "they're", I'll be sipping margaritas on a beach somewhere, translating the hilarious squawks of exotic birds (much funnier than most humans, anyway)."
You really think that's not creative?
I remember when people were saying that MT would never take off because it would never be able to understand things like:
"Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana"
But then we learnt that we can use bits and reject others. Just like with AI.
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Liena Vijupe
Latvia
Local time: 23:43
Member (2014)
French to Latvian
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| few years is a long time | Jun 12 |
Justin Peterson wrote:
AI is unstoppable, and is going to transform translation, whether we like it or not. In a few years, anyone who said they'll never use it, or prohibited it, will be laughing at themselves for the Luddites they were : )
... or maybe those who are very excited about it will laugh (or cry) about how naive they were once the hype is over. All major technological advancements have started with extremely exaggerated optimism and complete disregard of the risks, remember how not so long ago social media were to bring us all together and ensure world peace? Yeah, tell me about it.
There will be no going back to "before" and AI definitely has its use in some areas, but, as far as translation is concerned, I fail to see how could it significantly improve any further. It's just a giant TM with decreasing input quality due to the same crap being fed back to it and is more likely to transform the language itself, not translation.
Even if your scenario does come true, I would rather consider growing tomatoes instead of cleaning up AI's mess.
[Edited at 2024-06-12 17:21 GMT]
| | | | | Not a word in simplicity, as a Russian saying goes | Jun 12 |
[quote]Simon Turner wrote:
Original Text:
The type of texts I translate have a creative component and a degree of complexity that AI absolutely cannot handle for the time being. I get plenty of compliments about my work. So I'm just going to continue as I am. I won't be using AI in a few years, I'll be retired, so I'll be decoding the true humor of the universe (not people) instead.
Creative Rewrite:
"My translations are like weaving tapestries with words. Each thread, a cultural nuance, a hidden joke – a challenge even the most nimble AI would struggle with. Praise for my craft is a melody to my ears, but the symphony isn't over yet. In a few years, when I retire, I won't be facing down a machine on a translator's duel. Instead, I'll be busy translating the language of the universe, where the punchlines aren't written, but hidden in the twinkling of distant stars."
"Let's face it, translating the puns and metaphors that dance through my projects would leave any AI robot with a head-scratch emoji. Besides, the compliments on my work are like catnip to my translating soul. So, while those robots are busy learning the difference between "there" and "they're", I'll be sipping margaritas on a beach somewhere, translating the hilarious squawks of exotic birds (much funnier than most humans, anyway)."
You really think that's not creative?
Isn't it obvious that the original text doesn't need a creative rewrite? And even if you need one, it's a bad idea to give the job to a thing that keeps messing things up every single round. It got stuck with melody to ears and landed in catnip to soul, meh. To me, it's quite like American standup comedy: it's never subtle, it doesn't know how to be subtle (or to keep things connected in graceful ways). Fat trolls vs thin trolls is a phenomenon that doesn't seem to exist in English, but to a Russian, the only legit form of trollery is thin trollery because "thin" = "subtle." Maybe that's what makes me oversensitive to such things and keeps me thoroughly bored when I'm faced with AI creativity
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 22:43
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Overloaded, heavy, unnatural | Jun 12 |
Simon Turner wrote:
I asked Gemini to rewrite Kay's message in a creative manner, just to see what it could do. After about three seconds, or possibly a bit less, it gave me this:
------------------------------
"Here's a rewrite that injects creativity and challenges the translator's viewpoint:
Original Text:
The type of texts I translate have a creative component and a degree of complexity that AI absolutely cannot handle for the time being. I get plenty of compliments about my work. So I'm just going to continue as I am. I won't be using AI in a few years, I'll be retired, so I'll be decoding the true humor of the universe (not people) instead.
Creative Rewrite:
My translations are like weaving tapestries with words. Each thread, a cultural nuance, a hidden joke – a challenge even the most nimble AI would struggle with. Praise for my craft is a melody to my ears, but the symphony isn't over yet. In a few years, when I retire, I won't be facing down a machine on a translator's duel. Instead, I'll be busy translating the language of the universe, where the punchlines aren't written, but hidden in the twinkling of distant stars.
------------------------------
I think we can agree that it has a way to go, but it's certainly something we could start working on.
I then asked it to repeat the exercise, but taking a different approach. It decided to go for a more humorous angle and a few seconds later, it offered this:
"Let's face it, translating the puns and metaphors that dance through my projects would leave any AI robot with a head-scratch emoji. Besides, the compliments on my work are like catnip to my translating soul. So, while those robots are busy learning the difference between "there" and "they're", I'll be sipping margaritas on a beach somewhere, translating the hilarious squawks of exotic birds (much funnier than most humans, anyway)."
You really think that's not creative?
I remember when people were saying that MT would never take off because it would never be able to understand things like:
"Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana"
But then we learnt that we can use bits and reject others. Just like with AI. [/quote]
No, it’s not creative. It follows a formula. Too many outdated metaphors. If you are using metaphors and decorations, they shouldn’t appear in each single sentence. There is a fine line/sweet spot in text when you should be using them.
Imagine you had a chorus all the time in a song, instead of verses + chorus xtimes. AI is unaware of this balance. The formula shows through, it’s unnatural.
Also, next time you consult it, it’ll forget its own style, as it doesn’t have one. Each artist has their own unique style.
[Edited at 2024-06-12 20:24 GMT]
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Simon Turner wrote:
You really think that's not creative?
That’s not creative, it’s painful.
Imagine how much time it would take to undo all of that to get back to something human.
In the old days computers always spoke like machines. Now they’re like precocious kids let loose with a thesaurus, on crack, to the power of infinity. You’d think they could find a happy medium.
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P.L.F. Persio
Netherlands
Local time: 22:43
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
Lingua 5B wrote:
No, it’s not creative. It follows a formula. Too many outdated metaphors. If you are using metaphors and decorations, they shouldn’t appear in each single sentence. There is a fine line/sweet spot in text when you should be using them.
Imagine you had a chorus all the time in a song, instead of verses + chorus xtimes. AI is unaware of this balance. The formula shows through, it’s unnatural.
Also, next time you consult it, it’ll forget its own style, as it doesn’t have one. Each artist has their own unique style.
[Edited at 2024-06-12 20:24 GMT]
I agree, besides, those "creative" rewrites have a hint of smug bitchiness, completely lacking in Kay's original post, who's 100% the lady.
I can't remember whether I've already quoted it or not, but any conversations about the wonders of AI remind me of this jem of a postcoital dialogue from Barbarella, written by Jean-Claude Forest. It's in French, but you can translate it with AI:
Barbarella: Aiktor, vous avez du style!
Aiktor: Oh! Madame est trop bonne ... Je connais mes défauts ... Mes élans ont quelquechose de mécaniques!
[Edited at 2024-06-13 09:59 GMT]
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I think the areas where AI is utterly useless are relatively few
And that, over time, they will be fewer and fewer
Will there always be a need for human intervention, supervision, enhancement, creativity...? Maybe. Selfishly, I hope so, because that's my job.
But I think translators are in mass denial about how powerful it is, and how powerful it will be.
I do realize many don't want to hear this, and also that, yes, it raises profound philoso... See more I think the areas where AI is utterly useless are relatively few
And that, over time, they will be fewer and fewer
Will there always be a need for human intervention, supervision, enhancement, creativity...? Maybe. Selfishly, I hope so, because that's my job.
But I think translators are in mass denial about how powerful it is, and how powerful it will be.
I do realize many don't want to hear this, and also that, yes, it raises profound philosophical questions about our communications.
JP
Christopher Schröder wrote: Justin Peterson wrote:
In a few years, anyone who said they'll never use it, or prohibited it, will be laughing at themselves for the Luddites they were : )
In a few years maybe. But not now. It’s still utterly useless at a professional level. There are types of translation and translator who can save time with it today, I’m sure, but I fear you’re digging your own graves by doing so. Canny translators, if capable enough, will not be settling for packing biscuits in the translation factory but actively cultivating clients in niches that AI will not be able to compete with for a long time, if ever. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 22:43
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
I know a difference between Justine and Justin, AI doesn’t.
Justin, I have examples of 5 (five) clients who threatened to me last year (in that all of their jobs are now AI, post-editing, and if I don’t want them, I won’t get any jobs).
This year, all five of them keep reappearing with translation offers, rather than PE, not even minding my rate. Wondering why. What happened between last year and this year? Everybody had enough time to see how AI results are appl... See more I know a difference between Justine and Justin, AI doesn’t.
Justin, I have examples of 5 (five) clients who threatened to me last year (in that all of their jobs are now AI, post-editing, and if I don’t want them, I won’t get any jobs).
This year, all five of them keep reappearing with translation offers, rather than PE, not even minding my rate. Wondering why. What happened between last year and this year? Everybody had enough time to see how AI results are applied in reality and experience their consequences. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | On the utter uselessness of AI | Jun 13 |
Justin Peterson wrote:
I think the areas where AI is utterly useless are relatively few
For the general population, yes. But for professional translators?
The biggest trouble with MT, and especially enhanced MT (ChatGPT), is that, even if we ignore the not insignificant issues of it often getting things wrong, making stuff up and striking either an inappropriately robotic or an inappropriately OTT tone, the words it uses are quite simply not the same words that I would use.
I don't think my clients would be happy with that. I'm generally responsible for all of their published English. I'm therefore the voice of my client, and clients want a consistent voice.
So if I were to use AI, whatever it came up with would need to be edited back to what I would have put myself. And so I might as well have written it myself in the first place. Because I'm the real Slim Shady.
Until AI can be trained to mimic me specifically, it will therefore be utterly useless. And that's before we even get to how utterly unreliable it is...
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:43
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| But are you arguing from a position of credibility? | Jun 13 |
Justin Peterson wrote:
But I think translators are in mass denial about how powerful it is, and how powerful it will be.
In my view, the kind of people who need to resort to MT to remain competitive have already done so. That's basically happened. I don't think that is a bad thing, because people have a right to earn their living however they see fit, and there may be advantages to using AI in translation. If they can support themselves on PEMT, and find the work to their liking, then more power to them.
But I also think needing to shift to MT is proof that they were de facto unable to compete at whatever constitutes the high end in their area of traditional translation, bearing in mind that the high end is after all a small part of any market.
For that reason, while I would listen to and respect the opinions of such people in relation to the use of PEMT, I would not assign much value to their views about traditional translation.
One could argue that it is just a matter of time, of course, before all of us traditional translators go under, but how many years do we have to keep being successful for MT users to accept that maybe, just maybe, and for whatever reason, some people are simply better at the business of traditional translation than them?
You'll have noticed that I'm talking my own book here, and maybe next year my biggest client will tell me that I have to start using MT (and if they do, I will give it a go). Then again, maybe in five years' time my clients will still be explicitly forbidding me to use AI, and I will still be making good money without it, and Justin's prediction will be proven wrong*. Let's see.
Regards,
Dan
*Although because of the lack of data it is very hard to prove or disprove any except the simplest hypotheses about the translation market...
| | | | Chris Spurgin
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:43
Member (2016)
Russian to English
+ ...
| I will only pay for things that add value all round | Jun 14 |
I have not seen anything about AI worth paying for, to be honest.
My first experience with AI was not great. I asked it three trivia questions. One about music, one about film, and one about football. It got the football question wrong.
I saw some hyped-up LLM last week. It was no better than MT.
We have to consider that much of the Western world is failing to deliver economic growth (affecting demand) and failing to uplift people in tech awareness and lit... See more I have not seen anything about AI worth paying for, to be honest.
My first experience with AI was not great. I asked it three trivia questions. One about music, one about film, and one about football. It got the football question wrong.
I saw some hyped-up LLM last week. It was no better than MT.
We have to consider that much of the Western world is failing to deliver economic growth (affecting demand) and failing to uplift people in tech awareness and literacy. ▲ Collapse
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Simon Turner wrote:
"Here's a rewrite that injects creativity and challenges the translator's viewpoint:
Original Text:
The type of texts I translate have a creative component and a degree of complexity that AI absolutely cannot handle for the time being. I get plenty of compliments about my work. So I'm just going to continue as I am. I won't be using AI in a few years, I'll be retired, so I'll be decoding the true humor of the universe (not people) instead.
Creative Rewrite:
My translations are like weaving tapestries with words. Each thread, a cultural nuance, a hidden joke – a challenge even the most nimble AI would struggle with. Praise for my craft is a melody to my ears, but the symphony isn't over yet. In a few years, when I retire, I won't be facing down a machine on a translator's duel. Instead, I'll be busy translating the language of the universe, where the punchlines aren't written, but hidden in the twinkling of distant stars.
I honestly gagged a little when I read this. It's so... overwrought and overwritten. The fact that others agreed has restored my faith in my fellow translators significantly.
AI is a tool that can be used and abused depending on the user, but this is definitely AI abuse.
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