Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Spanish term or phrase:
macho manso
English translation:
docile horse mules / male mules
Added to glossary by
Charles Davis
Apr 20, 2012 16:37
12 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Spanish term
macho manso
Spanish to English
Science
Livestock / Animal Husbandry
From a text on colonial haciendas in Chiapas, Mexico:
La Orden de Predicadores controlaba aún desde su convento comiteco, a más de trapiches, ranchos y un molino, siete haciendas de importancia: Chejel, San Jacinto, Santa Rosa, San Pedro, Rosario, San Lorenzo y Santa Catarina, en donde pastaban 2032 yeguas, 1155 caballos, 344 potrillos, 2 mulas, 13 burros, 10 **“machos mansos”** y 1516 bovinos, lo que parecería indicar que para entonces se habían deshecho del ganado vacuno y privilegiado el equino.
I realize that "manso" may be applied to any animal, but in this context I believe it would be either equine or bovine. What I don't know is whether it refers to castrated animals or simply their tractability. I tend to think it may be speaking about oxen, but perhaps they're gelding horses? I'd especially appreciate input from anyone experienced in colonial-era documents and language. Thank you.
La Orden de Predicadores controlaba aún desde su convento comiteco, a más de trapiches, ranchos y un molino, siete haciendas de importancia: Chejel, San Jacinto, Santa Rosa, San Pedro, Rosario, San Lorenzo y Santa Catarina, en donde pastaban 2032 yeguas, 1155 caballos, 344 potrillos, 2 mulas, 13 burros, 10 **“machos mansos”** y 1516 bovinos, lo que parecería indicar que para entonces se habían deshecho del ganado vacuno y privilegiado el equino.
I realize that "manso" may be applied to any animal, but in this context I believe it would be either equine or bovine. What I don't know is whether it refers to castrated animals or simply their tractability. I tend to think it may be speaking about oxen, but perhaps they're gelding horses? I'd especially appreciate input from anyone experienced in colonial-era documents and language. Thank you.
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +4 | tame horse mules / male mules | Charles Davis |
4 | gelding | GUR CAKE |
4 | oxen | Julie Thurston |
4 | tame bull | Rosa Paredes |
1 | breeding bulls | Wendy Streitparth |
Change log
Apr 22, 2012 19:09: Charles Davis changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/88906">MSuderman's</a> old entry - "macho manso"" to ""tame horse mules / male mules""
Proposed translations
+4
42 mins
Selected
tame horse mules / male mules
"Macho" alone means the same as "mulo": a male mule, for which the proper term in English is a horse mule (as opposed to a mare mule, which is a "mula", a female mule. Strictly speaking, the words "mulo" and "mula" in Spanish, which mean "hijo/a de asno y yegua o de caballo y burra", correspond to both "mule" (the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse) and to the rarer "hinny" (the offspring of a male horse and a female donkey), so in theory "macho" or "mulo" could be a horse hinny, but conventionally "mule" covers both in English too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulo
For this meaning of "macho", see the DRAE entry:
"macho
1. m. Animal del sexo masculino.
2. m. mulo (‖ animal). [...]"
http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIBusUsual?TIPO_HTML=2&TIPO...
And so it was in historical times; the second definition of "macho" in the Diccionario de autoridades (1734) is: "Por antonomásia se entiende el hijo de caballo y burra, ù de yegua y asno".
The "macho manso" is contrasted with the "macho cerrero" in historical Mexican documents; for example:
"Nuestra Señora del Rosario, 3 088p. (Valor de 564 reses de fierro arriba, 60 caballos, 4 machos mansos, 9 mulas y machos cerreros, 12 potros brutos y un burro padre)"
"El gran Michoacán en 1791: Sociedad e ingreso eclesiástico en una diócesis novohispana", p. 86
http://historiayreligion.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/El-g...
A "macho cerrero" was an untamed mule:
"Se llamaba macho cerrero al mulo sin amansar"
Carmela Velázquez, Diccionario de términos coloniales, p. 79
So a "macho manso" is a tame mule, specifically a tame horse mule (male mule).
I have found no evidence that "manso" means "castrated", and I don't believe it does. Nor does "amansar" mean "castrate"; it means "tame" or "domesticate".
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Note added at 57 mins (2012-04-20 17:35:32 GMT)
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On the term "horse mule":
"Male Mule The correct name for a male mule is a Horse Mule, but
they are sometimes referred to as a John or Jack Mule."
http://www.thedonkeysanctuary.org.uk/files/donkeys/MulesHinn...
However, reading a bit further on this, I think I must take back my last comment above: I think "manso"/"amansar" quite probably do refer to castration or gelding. The document just quoted goes on to say:
"Male mules and male hinnies are anatomically normal. They are extremely difficult to handle and should be castrated, to help with their temperament and make them safer to manage."
So it may very well be that "manso" means "docile", because castrated", and that a "macho cerrero" was uncastrated. I would change my answer to docile horse mules; you could actually say "castrated" or "gelded", but I would leave it euphemistic, to match the Spanish. But they are mules, no question.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2012-04-20 21:02:43 GMT)
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I thought the evidence that "macho" means "mulo" was pretty clear, but in the light of Rosa's disagreement, let me add a couple more references. There are many from Spain, but these are from Mexico:
"La avenida Macheros es una de las vías más antiguas de Ensenada. Su nombre nos da indicio de ello. Esta singular denominación “macheros” se le dio a la avenida por localizarse en este lugar, por la altura de la calle Cuarta, un solar en el cual había una pensión para caballos y machos, es decir mulas. El diccionario de la Real Academia Española define el término machero como corral para machos (mulos)."
http://www.elvigia.net/noticia/vialidad-con-historia
"Macho o Mulo. Cruce de yegua y burro o de burra y caballo."
http://mexicocriollo.mforos.com/1530527/10194154-arcaismos-e...
"En la Castilla rural de España, y en regiones rurales de México y países aledaños, a la mula macho y hembra se les dice "macho" y "mula" respectivamente (y en otros lugares "mula macho" y "mula hembra")."
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculino
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Note added at 2 days2 hrs (2012-04-22 19:14:42 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
Cheers!
Just as a little postscript to this, we had Sunday lunch today with my wife's parents, who are both from farming families in a village in La Mancha. My mother-in-law confirmed that her father had a "macho" and a "mula". They agreed that "manso" probably means "capado" (as opposed to "entero": their terms), though "machos" were not always gelded. My father-in-law's father had a "macho capado" and a "burro entero".
Mules disappeared very quickly in the 1960s when people started buying tractors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulo
For this meaning of "macho", see the DRAE entry:
"macho
1. m. Animal del sexo masculino.
2. m. mulo (‖ animal). [...]"
http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIBusUsual?TIPO_HTML=2&TIPO...
And so it was in historical times; the second definition of "macho" in the Diccionario de autoridades (1734) is: "Por antonomásia se entiende el hijo de caballo y burra, ù de yegua y asno".
The "macho manso" is contrasted with the "macho cerrero" in historical Mexican documents; for example:
"Nuestra Señora del Rosario, 3 088p. (Valor de 564 reses de fierro arriba, 60 caballos, 4 machos mansos, 9 mulas y machos cerreros, 12 potros brutos y un burro padre)"
"El gran Michoacán en 1791: Sociedad e ingreso eclesiástico en una diócesis novohispana", p. 86
http://historiayreligion.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/El-g...
A "macho cerrero" was an untamed mule:
"Se llamaba macho cerrero al mulo sin amansar"
Carmela Velázquez, Diccionario de términos coloniales, p. 79
So a "macho manso" is a tame mule, specifically a tame horse mule (male mule).
I have found no evidence that "manso" means "castrated", and I don't believe it does. Nor does "amansar" mean "castrate"; it means "tame" or "domesticate".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 57 mins (2012-04-20 17:35:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
On the term "horse mule":
"Male Mule The correct name for a male mule is a Horse Mule, but
they are sometimes referred to as a John or Jack Mule."
http://www.thedonkeysanctuary.org.uk/files/donkeys/MulesHinn...
However, reading a bit further on this, I think I must take back my last comment above: I think "manso"/"amansar" quite probably do refer to castration or gelding. The document just quoted goes on to say:
"Male mules and male hinnies are anatomically normal. They are extremely difficult to handle and should be castrated, to help with their temperament and make them safer to manage."
So it may very well be that "manso" means "docile", because castrated", and that a "macho cerrero" was uncastrated. I would change my answer to docile horse mules; you could actually say "castrated" or "gelded", but I would leave it euphemistic, to match the Spanish. But they are mules, no question.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2012-04-20 21:02:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I thought the evidence that "macho" means "mulo" was pretty clear, but in the light of Rosa's disagreement, let me add a couple more references. There are many from Spain, but these are from Mexico:
"La avenida Macheros es una de las vías más antiguas de Ensenada. Su nombre nos da indicio de ello. Esta singular denominación “macheros” se le dio a la avenida por localizarse en este lugar, por la altura de la calle Cuarta, un solar en el cual había una pensión para caballos y machos, es decir mulas. El diccionario de la Real Academia Española define el término machero como corral para machos (mulos)."
http://www.elvigia.net/noticia/vialidad-con-historia
"Macho o Mulo. Cruce de yegua y burro o de burra y caballo."
http://mexicocriollo.mforos.com/1530527/10194154-arcaismos-e...
"En la Castilla rural de España, y en regiones rurales de México y países aledaños, a la mula macho y hembra se les dice "macho" y "mula" respectivamente (y en otros lugares "mula macho" y "mula hembra")."
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculino
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days2 hrs (2012-04-22 19:14:42 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
Cheers!
Just as a little postscript to this, we had Sunday lunch today with my wife's parents, who are both from farming families in a village in La Mancha. My mother-in-law confirmed that her father had a "macho" and a "mula". They agreed that "manso" probably means "capado" (as opposed to "entero": their terms), though "machos" were not always gelded. My father-in-law's father had a "macho capado" and a "burro entero".
Mules disappeared very quickly in the 1960s when people started buying tractors.
Note from asker:
Now this is what Kudoz is all about! This information is great, and I don't think I would have come up with it on my own. Also thanks to everyone else who commented for your input. |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks again!"
15 mins
gelding
"Gelding" refers to castrated male horses. If you decide that the comment refers to bulls (quite possible given that various types of horses have been dealt with before it, and it is followed by a mention to cows and a reference to non-breeding of bovines), then the best option may be "castrated bulls"/"non-breeding bulls".
6 mins
breeding bulls
-
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Note added at 19 mins (2012-04-20 16:56:49 GMT)
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Have since seen it referring to rams, rabbits etc., so unless you can find out what particular animal is implied perhaps "breeding males" or "stud animal" would be better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stud_(animal)
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Note added at 19 mins (2012-04-20 16:56:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Have since seen it referring to rams, rabbits etc., so unless you can find out what particular animal is implied perhaps "breeding males" or "stud animal" would be better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stud_(animal)
1 hr
oxen
I feel they are talking about castrated bulls when adding mansos
4 hrs
tame bull
Your original does not specify the animal; it says 'macho' (male/bull)
http://www.linguee.es/espanol-ingles/search?source=auto&quer...
macho 1
m. Persona o animal del sexo masculino.
♦ Se adjunta en aposición a los nombres epicenos de animales para indicar su género masculino:
foca, ardilla macho.
http://www.wordreference.com/definicion/macho
manso,sa
adj. De naturaleza apacible y tranquila:
es un hombre manso que no se exalta por nada.
[Animal] que no es bravo:
caballo manso.
Sosegado,tranquilo:
aguas mansas del estanque.
m. Res que guía un rebaño de ganado,especialmente el bravo:
los mansos se distinguen de los toros de lidia porque llevan un cencerro.
http://www.wordreference.com/definicion/manso
http://www.linguee.es/espanol-ingles/search?source=auto&quer...
macho 1
m. Persona o animal del sexo masculino.
♦ Se adjunta en aposición a los nombres epicenos de animales para indicar su género masculino:
foca, ardilla macho.
http://www.wordreference.com/definicion/macho
manso,sa
adj. De naturaleza apacible y tranquila:
es un hombre manso que no se exalta por nada.
[Animal] que no es bravo:
caballo manso.
Sosegado,tranquilo:
aguas mansas del estanque.
m. Res que guía un rebaño de ganado,especialmente el bravo:
los mansos se distinguen de los toros de lidia porque llevan un cencerro.
http://www.wordreference.com/definicion/manso
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