May 30, 2012 23:23
11 yrs ago
7 viewers *
English term

fun (adjective)

English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters Usage
It was a fun evening.

What is the comparative/superlative?

Any evidence that "funner" and funnest" are not permitted?
(1-syllable adjectives and all that. And not irregular.)

I met another linguist (ENS) tonight who used "funner". We discussed it, but got nowhere. I said I'd pursue it further. :-)

Anybody?
c

Discussion

Cilian O'Tuama (asker) Feb 2, 2015:
If anyone is interested... and subscribes to unabridged M-W:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/video/0059-funner.html
Sheila Wilson May 31, 2012:
Hey, thanks, Juan Manuel!
Sheila Wilson I "undeleted" it for you. :)
Sheila Wilson May 31, 2012:
Damn! My entry appeared twice and when I deleted the second they both disappeared!
Sheila Wilson May 31, 2012:
You'll only get debate, Cilian My students always expect me to give directives on these things, and want "this is (in)correct", not "well, some people...". My research has shown that you probably won't find a definitive answer. It's one of those areas of English where most native speakers say "maybe it's correct, but I don't use it" and others just use it.
B D Finch May 31, 2012:
Language developments As Tony says, the use of "fun" as an adjective is too recent for comparative and superlative variations to be accepted. I'd go beyond that and say that the use of "fun" as an adjective by anyone with a good knowledge of English is generally a deliberate misuse of a noun as an adjective to create a certain effect (casual, even jokey).
BrigitteHilgner May 31, 2012:
Purists will probably tell me to keep quiet, but I've been using English on a daily basis for over 30 years and to me, funner & the funnest sounds distinctly odd. Even if it were permitted I would not use it.

Responses

1 day 9 hrs
Selected

Used informally and may well be moving very slowly towards acceptance (according to Fowler)

Please see my reference entry (which I have repeated here) - I've now included a link in which the entry from the 2008 Pocket Edition is quoted (a snippet view is also available in Google Books). The 2004 version is from my own paper copy.

If you're a fan of Fowler, here's what the 2008 Pocket edition of Fowler's Modern English Usage has to say:

fun, first recorded in 1700 and stigmatized by Dr Johnson as a 'low cant word' (i.e. ephemeral jargon), has long hovered on the brink of adjectival status (It was really fun) and more recently has taken a step further in informal attributive uses such as We had a fun time or That would be a fun thing to do. It still has a way to go, however, since it cannot yet be qualified by intensifying adverbs such as very or extremely (use of great instead gives away the noun's disguise). It also lacks the comparative and superlative inflections that a single-syllable adjective normally has, although more fun as in This sounds more fun is legitimate; funner and funnest have appeared in youth slang in American English and are now found in British English too, albeit usually in a jocular form:
She is also looking forward to the camaraderie of her country's locker room. 'Teams,' she said, 'are so much funner.'—Guardian, 2004.
http://www.answers.com/topic/fun

That is a revised version of what was said in Fowler's Modern English Usage 2004:

fun. This modernish noun (first recorded in 1700 and stigmatized by Johnson as a 'low cant word') has become an informal quasi-adj., esp. in the second half of the 20C. We had a fun time, exclaims many a young person after a party, an outing, a holiday, etc., or It was a fun thing to do, meaning 'an amusing or enjoyable thing'. But it has not yet gained admission to the standard class of adjectives in that, in serious writing, it (so far) lacks a comparative and a superlative. In ordinary attributive use fun is quite frequent, esp. in funfair, the American word funfest (a gathering for the purpose of amusement), and fun run (an invention of the 1970s).

Thanks, Cilian, for your fun comment - who knows, perhaps one day ProZ will indeed instruct us to "Select this answer as helpfullest"!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks everyone. This was the most helpful and came closest to answering my actual Q. "
+6
26 mins

more fun/the most fun

These are what I would go with, no rule behind it. It might however be to do with the fact that 'funner' could be mistaken for 'funnier' and 'the funnest', 'the funniest'.
Note from asker:
I'd go for other solutions too, but that's not my Q. Any evidence that "funner" and funnest" are not permitted?
Peer comment(s):

agree ANNIE BATTEN : Personally I've never heard funner or funnest used, only more fun/most fun but I've never really thought about why!
47 mins
Thanks, Annie!
agree BrigitteHilgner : That would be my choice, too.
5 hrs
Thanks, Brigitte!
agree Alexander C. Thomson : Yes. Note that ‘more/most fun’ can only be used predicatively, not attributively: you say ‘that evening was more / the most fun’, not ‘*that was a more fun evening’.
5 hrs
That's interesting, you're right! Thanks!
agree Jenni Lukac (X) : Alexander makes a good point.
7 hrs
Thanks, Jenni :)
agree NancyLynn : of course, formally, yes, with Alexander here. but... if I was having a fun evening, I would not shy away from telling my friends it was the funnest! :)
12 hrs
Thanks NancyLynn :)
agree Phong Le
1 day 13 hrs
Thanks Phong!
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35 mins

funner/the funnest

Fun
adjective, fun·ner, fun·nest.
4.
Informal . of or pertaining to fun, especially to social fun: a fun thing to do; really a fun person; the funnest game.
5.
Informal . whimsical; flamboyant: The fashions this year are definitely on the fun side.

I checked 3 dictionaries and they all go with "funner" "funnest" as the general rule says.
Regards!
Peer comment(s):

agree Martin Riordan : Why not?
1 hr
disagree Alexander C. Thomson : Why not? Because ‘fun’ as an attrib. adj. is of very recent date, so it would only be used in rhyming punning: ‘they found it funner to taunt the gunner’. (‘The funnest’ would be OK for tongue-in-cheek — especially U.S. — colloquial usage for ‘such fun’.)
5 hrs
neutral Sheila Wilson : Just to even the playing field :-) "Very recent date" maybe, but that doesn't mean it's wrong today
7 hrs
agree NancyLynn : As Martin says, Why not? Are we not having fun here? :) But I'll admit, I've used it tongue-in-cheek with friends and was called up on it: "I thought you were an English major", "Aren't you a professional linguist", etc... hehe
12 hrs
disagree David Moore (X) : Fun may colloquially used as an adjective, but it doesn't necessarily follow any rules. As an ENS, I find these options undesirable.
2 days 7 hrs
Hi, David: As most dictionaries show, fun is not "colloquially used as an adjective", it is an adjective (apart of being a noun) most dictionaries even include the comparative and superlative, as I noted in my answer. Thanks for your comments. Regards! :)
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+1
44 mins

...the most fun evening, ever

...the most fun evening, ever

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 46 mins (2012-05-31 00:09:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g2939...En caché - Traducir esta página
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26 opiniones

al jamal: Probably one of the most fun evenings I've ever had! - See traveler reviews, 12 candid photos, and great deals for Istanbul, Turkey, at TripAdvisor.
Twitter / Scoop222: Most fun evening EVER! Totwitter.com/Scoop222/.../202981718058213377En caché - Traducir esta página
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Ideas for carrying off the best romantic evening your partner has ever experienced. Fun creative ideas that can't go wrong. Romantic Date Ideas 11 Romantic ...
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10 Jun 2011 – Going on a cruise could be the most fun you've ever had, or it may bore ... It may be awkward at first, but later on in the night you will begin to ...

eski :))
Peer comment(s):

agree Tina Vonhof (X) : Without the comma and without the spanish references.
1 hr
Hi Tina: Thanks for your confirmation: eski :))
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+1
7 hrs

"not permitted"

I'd say that these versions would not be permitted simply because 'fun' is not an adjective but a noun being used to qualify another noun.

OK, in modern usage, it seems to have been more or less adopted as an adjective — but too recently, I feel, for these forms to be widely accepted.

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Note added at 13 hrs (2012-05-31 13:04:55 GMT)
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Look at it this way: we can talk about a 'car auction', where 'car' is a noun being used to qualify another noun, 'auction.

I don't think anyone, though, would think of saying "This is going to be the carrest auction ever!" — of course, something can 'be fun' (but note it is a noun there), while it can't be 'car'. I think it is that very predicative use of 'fun' that maybe leads people to regard it as an adjective; certainly, when I was young, we would not have heard it used that way, I don't think.
Peer comment(s):

agree B D Finch
35 mins
Thanks, B.!
neutral Sheila Wilson : As a translator, I would actively avoid them, but I don't think it's appropriate to say "not permitted" for general use. "Wasn't permitted but maybe becoming permitted" would be more accurate, IMO
1 hr
That's why I put it in quotes, Sheila! And I did give an explanation — I just wanted to explain the reason why it might traditionally be considered to be "not permitted"
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1 day 8 hrs

It is speculative, there is no 'evidence' that it is not permitted.

I am a native English speaker, and I have never used, nor would I ever use the words 'funner' or 'funnest'. It just doesn't sound right to me.

There is a lot of debate among linguists regarding the use of funner and funnest, but it seems to me that this is a good example of a language in a state of flux. Languages change over time. Some grammar and word usage which was considered incorrect in the past is now accepted today, so I think it is too difficult to say with certainty that it is not permitted. Some people accept it, others don't. Some dictionaries include funner and funnest, others don't. For example, my spell-check in MS Word flags both words as incorrect.

Anyway, I would refrain from using these words in any English translations as most native English speakers would probably think it is bad English.
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Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

yes and no

If your ENS used it as an attributive adjective, he's probably following a trend. He must have heard it somewhere - and he's a linguist, right? But 210 GHits for "funner evening". Not too encouraging.
http://tinyurl.com/6p2xagr

I asked my wife (USENS), I said: How about using funner as in "This is one of the funner evenings or one of the funner things to do" and she looked at me and said "sounds strange". Now, she's not a linguist but she is married to a guy who has asked her all kinds of linguistic questions. I said what if I really wanna use it. She said. Sure. So, I guess, it depends. As a lonely adverb, it really sounds weird: He's funner (no, I'd say "he's more fun") but maybe: she's the funnest gal.

How about:

1. We spent the funnest time at the zoo. ???
2. We had the most fun at the zoo. !!!!
3. The time at the zoo was the funnest (one). ?????????

If you can use it at all, it might depend on the context and if we're talking about people or things. And, it's seems to sound less crazy when used as an attributive adjective than as an adverb; if used as an adverb, the superlative seems a bit stranger than the comparative.

Like one of the comments in Juan's second link:
I don't care if "funner" is now in the dictionary, it is not a word! It sounds ridiculous and makes the speaker sound like a fool."

I probably wouldn't use it at a formal function or to get a job at the local newspaper, writing, that is. Actually, as an adverb, I wouldn't use it at all, because somebody's going to say: And you're from....?

:)

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Note added at 2 hrs (2012-05-31 02:16:25 GMT)
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typo corr: And, it seems to sound less crazy ...

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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-05-31 02:30:13 GMT)
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I could get used to " the funnest evening" (2,860 GHits): http://tinyurl.com/6s4ecbb

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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-05-31 02:43:18 GMT)
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compare to:
tan (adjective)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tan
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree B D Finch : Though I think you have to allow for people deliberately and playfully using such variations with the intention of it being recognised that they are not grammatically correct.
5 hrs
Thanks for your comments, B.D.
agree katsy : I'm with your wife (I am UKENS). If "teaching" I certainly wouldn't teach (or encourage) "funner"; but as for saying it's "permitted" or not, well.... I'll stay on the fence. I personally have only ever heard "more/most fun" and even that, not often...
5 hrs
thanks, katsy!
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8 hrs
Reference:

Fowler

If you're a fan of Fowler, here's what the 2008 Pocket edition of Fowler's Modern English Usage has to say:

fun, first recorded in 1700 and stigmatized by Dr Johnson as a 'low cant word' (i.e. ephemeral jargon), has long hovered on the brink of adjectival status (It was really fun) and more recently has taken a step further in informal attributive uses such as We had a fun time or That would be a fun thing to do. It still has a way to go, however, since it cannot yet be qualified by intensifying adverbs such as very or extremely (use of great instead gives away the noun's disguise). It also lacks the comparative and superlative inflections that a single-syllable adjective normally has, although more fun as in This sounds more fun is legitimate; funner and funnest have appeared in youth slang in American English and are now found in British English too, albeit usually in a jocular form:
She is also looking forward to the camaraderie of her country's locker room. 'Teams,' she said, 'are so much funner.'—Guardian, 2004.

That is a revised version of what was said in Fowler's Modern English Usage 2004:

fun. This modernish noun (first recorded in 1700 and stigmatized by Johnson as a 'low cant word') has become an informal quasi-adj., esp. in the second half of the 20C. We had a fun time, exclaims many a young person after a party, an outing, a holiday, etc., or It was a fun thing to do, meaning 'an amusing or enjoyable thing'. But it has not yet gained admission to the standard class of adjectives in that, in serious writing, it (so far) lacks a comparative and a superlative. In ordinary attributive use fun is quite frequent, esp. in funfair, the American word funfest (a gathering for the purpose of amusement), and fun run (an invention of the 1970s).
Note from asker:
Thank you. I am not looking for alternatives or personal preferences, but "proof". :-) (Not that I'd classify Fowler as proof.) This has been the helpfullest contribution so far, if you care to post it as an answer.
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