Glossary entry (derived from question below)
German term or phrase:
verketzert werden
English translation:
to be mangled
Added to glossary by
SeiTT
Jun 14, 2013 09:57
10 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term
verketzert warden
German to English
Social Sciences
History
The History of Royalty
Greetings
My problem is that none of the definitions in my dictionaries fit.
Please see:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alix_von_Hessen-Darmstadt
Alix wurde als sechstes Kind und vierte Tochter von Großherzog Ludwig IV. von Hessen und bei Rhein und Prinzessin Alice von Großbritannien und Irland, der zweitältesten Tochter von Königin Victoria, geboren….. Sie erhielt den Namen Alix, da laut ihrer Mutter der Name „nicht so leicht verketzert werden“ könne, wie der Name Alice „weil man hier meinen Namen umbringt. Man spricht ihn ′Aliice′ aus“. Die weiteren Namen erhielt sie zu Ehren ihrer Großmutter Königin Victoria und ihren englischen Tanten, der Schwestern ihrer Mutter.
Best wishes, and many thanks,
Simon
PS There seems to be an interesting migration from “Alice” to “Alexandra” here, by the way, which her mother presumably would not have approved of.
My problem is that none of the definitions in my dictionaries fit.
Please see:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alix_von_Hessen-Darmstadt
Alix wurde als sechstes Kind und vierte Tochter von Großherzog Ludwig IV. von Hessen und bei Rhein und Prinzessin Alice von Großbritannien und Irland, der zweitältesten Tochter von Königin Victoria, geboren….. Sie erhielt den Namen Alix, da laut ihrer Mutter der Name „nicht so leicht verketzert werden“ könne, wie der Name Alice „weil man hier meinen Namen umbringt. Man spricht ihn ′Aliice′ aus“. Die weiteren Namen erhielt sie zu Ehren ihrer Großmutter Königin Victoria und ihren englischen Tanten, der Schwestern ihrer Mutter.
Best wishes, and many thanks,
Simon
PS There seems to be an interesting migration from “Alice” to “Alexandra” here, by the way, which her mother presumably would not have approved of.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +1 | mangled |
Lancashireman
|
| 4 +3 | corrupted/bastardized |
Lise van der Eyk (X)
|
| 3 +2 | adulterated |
Wendy Streitparth
|
| 3 | mispronounced |
BrigitteHilgner
|
| 2 | ridicule / lampoon |
Cilian O'Tuama
|
References
| Bedeutungsverschiebung |
Johanna Timm, PhD
|
Proposed translations
+1
9 hrs
Lancashireman
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Related KudoZ points
:
252
Selected
mangled
I think this context requires something more colourful than ‘distorted’ or ‘corrupted’:
The "Bock" is a product of the Bavarian dialect. As the Bavarians started to quaff Elias' creation, they soon mangled the name Einbeck to "ayn pock" and, eventually, to "ein Bock" (a Bock), and the name stuck.
http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/Urbock.html
A second theory of his father was that a person's name exerted enormous influence over that person's nature and fortunes, with the worst possible name being Tristram. In view of the previous accidents, Tristram's father decreed that the boy would receive an especially auspicious name, Trismegistus. Susannah mangled the name in conveying it to the curate, and the child was christened Tristram.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_and_Opinions_of_Tristr...
when the community around Hickman's Mill applied for a federal post office, the officer in Washington, DC, mangled the name to "Hickman Mills".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hickman_Mills,_Kansas_City
President Obama addressed graduates at Ohio State University some 18 hours after returning from a trip to Mexico and Costa Rica -- and it showed a little bit as he mangled the name of a local landmark.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2013/05/06/obama-ohio-...
Riding about the pitiful ruins and damp, weedy shambles of recaptured Manila, G.I. jeep drivers used to refer to the Kweezon Bridge, Kweezon Boulevard, etc. However they mangled the name, sharp, dapper, bantam-sized Manuel Luis Quezon, (rhymes with stays on), late President of the Commonwealth, left his mark on the Philippines.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,793125,00.h...
The "Bock" is a product of the Bavarian dialect. As the Bavarians started to quaff Elias' creation, they soon mangled the name Einbeck to "ayn pock" and, eventually, to "ein Bock" (a Bock), and the name stuck.
http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/Urbock.html
A second theory of his father was that a person's name exerted enormous influence over that person's nature and fortunes, with the worst possible name being Tristram. In view of the previous accidents, Tristram's father decreed that the boy would receive an especially auspicious name, Trismegistus. Susannah mangled the name in conveying it to the curate, and the child was christened Tristram.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_and_Opinions_of_Tristr...
when the community around Hickman's Mill applied for a federal post office, the officer in Washington, DC, mangled the name to "Hickman Mills".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hickman_Mills,_Kansas_City
President Obama addressed graduates at Ohio State University some 18 hours after returning from a trip to Mexico and Costa Rica -- and it showed a little bit as he mangled the name of a local landmark.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2013/05/06/obama-ohio-...
Riding about the pitiful ruins and damp, weedy shambles of recaptured Manila, G.I. jeep drivers used to refer to the Kweezon Bridge, Kweezon Boulevard, etc. However they mangled the name, sharp, dapper, bantam-sized Manuel Luis Quezon, (rhymes with stays on), late President of the Commonwealth, left his mark on the Philippines.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,793125,00.h...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Lise van der Eyk (X)
: Yes, I think that would be another option. But I'm not sure if it conveys the same derogatory spirit as "verketzert"... "Bastardized" seems to capture more of the spirit, though it also might be too strong for the context...
11 hrs
|
|
Thanks. 'Mangled is indeed derogatory. 'Bastardised' should not be used in the context of a christening.
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Many thanks, excellent."
38 mins
BrigitteHilgner
Austria
Austria
Native in German
Austria
b2b/economics/marketing/market research/
Native in: German 
Works in: German to English, French to German, English to German
Related KudoZ points
:
32
German term (edited):
verketzert werden
mispronounced
Please mind the spelling: "w e rden" not "w a rden".
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Lancashireman
: Not a spelling error as such but Microsoft WORD autocorrect function seeing 'werden' and changing it to 'warden'. This happens in Outlook, for example, if you don't reset Language. HTH
2 hrs
|
|
So what?
|
5 hrs
Cilian O'Tuama
Germany
Germany
Native in English
Germany
Quality Translations since 1986
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, English, German, and 6 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
20
German term (edited):
verketzern
ridicule / lampoon
from the context, though I've never heard the word before.
+3
10 mins
German term (edited):
verketzert werden
corrupted/bastardized
See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_(linguistics).
"Ketzer" is "heretic" and "heretics" in Europe's past were not much more positively viewed than "bastards".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2013-06-14 18:59:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
See reference by Johanna.
"Ketzer" is "heretic" and "heretics" in Europe's past were not much more positively viewed than "bastards".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2013-06-14 18:59:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
See reference by Johanna.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Horst Huber (X)
: Im not a native speaker, but "bastardized" seems to suggest the disgust. "Disfigured"?
5 hrs
|
|
Glad you agree! I think "disfigured" and "adulterated" would work great in other contexts, but don't seem to sound just right about names. Corrupted (a bit nicer) or bastardized (very strong) seem more appropriate talking about language...
|
|
| agree |
Johanna Timm, PhD
: distorted?
8 hrs
|
|
I think that would also basically convey the meaning, just not sure if it conveys the spirit... In the quotes she speaks pretty strongly: "weil man hier meinen Namen umbringt", etc.
|
|
| agree |
Elisabeth Kissel
: I think corrupted is a good solution.
14 hrs
|
|
Thanks, Elisabeth.
|
+2
1 hr
Wendy Streitparth
Germany
Germany
Native in English
Germany
45 years experience
Native in: English (Variant: British)
Works in: German to English, French to English, Spanish to English, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
44
adulterated
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/adulterate
Your grandfather may, for instance, believe that bartenders adulterate the name “Martini” by applying it to combinations of vodka,
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-06-14 11:40:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
or distorted
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-06-14 12:08:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
or ruined
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2013-06-14 19:28:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Extract from "Dombey and Son", by Charles Dickens:
Mr Dombey was disposed to regard him as a choice spirit who shone in society, and who had not that poisonous ingredient of poverty with which choice spirits in general are too much adulterated.
Your grandfather may, for instance, believe that bartenders adulterate the name “Martini” by applying it to combinations of vodka,
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-06-14 11:40:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
or distorted
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-06-14 12:08:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
or ruined
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2013-06-14 19:28:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Extract from "Dombey and Son", by Charles Dickens:
Mr Dombey was disposed to regard him as a choice spirit who shone in society, and who had not that poisonous ingredient of poverty with which choice spirits in general are too much adulterated.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Helen Shiner
: with distorted
38 mins
|
|
Thanks, Helen
|
|
| neutral |
Horst Huber (X)
: Quite. Martini & Rossi did it with gin.
3 hrs
|
|
See note on Charles Dickens, admittedly involving spirits, but of a different nature.
|
|
| agree |
Johanna Timm, PhD
: distorted (sorry I overlooked your additional suggestion!)
6 hrs
|
|
Thank you, Johanna
|
Reference comments
6 hrs
Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Canada
Native in German
Canada
Friendly, fast & certified!
Native in: German (Variants: Swiss, Platt / Nieder (Low German), Austrian, Germany)
Works in: English to German, German to English, German
Related KudoZ points
:
60
Reference:
Bedeutungsverschiebung
Bedeutungsverschiebung verketzern: rel. Häresie -> Verfälschung
“Die in der Beziehung des Wortes auf religiöse Häresien wesentliche Vorstellung von deren „Verfälschung“ der kirchlichen Lehre bot im Spätmittelalter die Voraussetzung dafür, das Wort auch auf andere, nicht-doktrinäre Verbrechen oder Abweichungen zu übertragen: auf das Fälschen von Metallen („ketzern“, vgl. „Katzengold“ für Pyrit), und auf die kirchlich als „Verfälschung“ (Pervertierung) gottgegebener Natur gedeutete Homosexualität und Päderastie („Ketzerbube“).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketzer
“Die in der Beziehung des Wortes auf religiöse Häresien wesentliche Vorstellung von deren „Verfälschung“ der kirchlichen Lehre bot im Spätmittelalter die Voraussetzung dafür, das Wort auch auf andere, nicht-doktrinäre Verbrechen oder Abweichungen zu übertragen: auf das Fälschen von Metallen („ketzern“, vgl. „Katzengold“ für Pyrit), und auf die kirchlich als „Verfälschung“ (Pervertierung) gottgegebener Natur gedeutete Homosexualität und Päderastie („Ketzerbube“).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketzer
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Lise van der Eyk (X)
: Thanks for the reference!
1 hr
|
| agree |
Klaus Schmirler
1 hr
|
| agree |
Lancashireman
: with Lise
5 hrs
|
Discussion
Funny how we still have the same problem today. I know many EN speaking friends living in Germany who go to great lengths to pick names for their children that can be easily pronounced in both countries (i.e. Germany and wherever they come from), can be a particular problem if you want to choose an Irish name ;)
I was just wondering if “verketzert” could be a kind of echo of “verkürzt” – I think this does happen in languages occasionally.