Michael Beijer Apr 7, 2015:

bah vies Zelf vind ik het afschuwelijk klinken, but then again, who am I to judge? Gelukkig kan zoiets niet in het Engels en hoef ik het dus nooit zelf te typen.

"Good examples of bad everyday language …" ;)

Kitty Brussaard Apr 7, 2015:

@Barend Good examples of everyday-language references to persons being 'inhoudelijk' in the sense of being knowledgeable, knowing their field/business/stuff etc.

Barend van Zadelhoff Apr 4, 2015:

Things are not so peculiar as some participants in this discussion might think (and it is not peculiar to me):

Hij is inhoudelijk en analytisch en is daardoor ...
Ik ken Peter als een gedreven inhoudelijk persoon.
Een inhoudelijk persoon kan denk ik beter aangeven waar we naar toe moeten.
David de Jong is een goede politicus. Daar kan niemand om heen. Een integer en inhoudelijk persoon.
Belangrijk is om naast een inhoudelijk persoon iemand mee te nemen naar Brussel met administratieve en project management ervaring.

Enzovoorts.

Michael Beijer Apr 3, 2015:

@Kitty: I completely agree that the word is not being used correctly, on its own. A person cannot be "inhoudelijk".

I also agree it should have been used as either "inhoudelijk sterk/onderlegd" or "op de inhoud gericht", and that only the author will be able to tell us which was meant.

However, I do think there is sufficient reason to believe the latter interpretation is correct, as I have already explained several times. That is, I read "inhoudelijk" in this sentence as shorthand for "op de inhoud gericht".

Kitty Brussaard Apr 3, 2015:

Mixing up things IMHO FWIW, the way I see it as a Dutch native speaker, inhoudelijk is not the same thing as nuchter/praktisch/pragmatisch (EN matter-of-fact / down-to-earth). As has been amply pointed out before, qualifying someone as 'inhoudelijk' sounds awkward in Dutch and IMO should be read as either 'inhoudelijk sterk/onderlegd' or 'op de inhoud gericht'. Which of these two interpretations applies here, we can only guess at.

Michael Beijer Apr 3, 2015:

@Will: Yes, I think that might work. It is in line with my interpretation of the sentence referring to 4 personality traits/aspects of his personality, rather than 3 and 1 re his level of knowledge/expertise (which I am sure is touched upon elsewhere in the document).

see also:

Oxforddictionaries.com:

matter of fact:

Usage examples:
"The greatest trump card that he has to offer is his practical, matter-of-fact approach to tackling world poverty."
"A down to-earth matter-of-fact approach devoid of judgment is best, no matter how horrific the details."

1. Unemotional and practical:
1.1 Concerned only with factual content rather than style or expression:

Synonyms of matter-of-fact in English:

unemotional, practical, down-to-earth, sensible, realistic, rational, sober, unsentimental, pragmatic, businesslike, commonsensical, level-headed, hard-headed, no-nonsense, factual, literal, straightforward, plain, unembellished, unvarnished, unadorned, prosaic, mundane, unimaginative, uncreative, deadpan, flat, dull, dry, pedestrian, lifeless, humdrum
[ANTONYMS] airy-fairy

Barend van Zadelhoff Apr 3, 2015:

"is evidently seeking a euphemistic way of saying that the gentleman in question is not strong on emotions/reading other people's emotions"

This is not evident to me.

They might say something like:

As far as the first three qualities are concerned everything is fine and the fourth quality can be improved a bit.

He already does reasonably well as far as 4 is concerned but improvement is possible.


"inhoudelijk" does not mean 'matter of fact'.

It doesn't mean this in general and it doesn't mean this here in my opinion.

Will Kelly (asker) Apr 3, 2015:

How about (loosely) 'matter-of-fact'? OED definition: Concerned only with factual content rather than style or expression. The report is evidently seeking a euphemistic way of saying that the gentleman in question is not strong on emotions/reading other people's emotions.

Michael Beijer Mar 27, 2015:

@Natasha: Nee, gelukkig niet! ;)

(In antwoord op je vraag: "Heb jij jaren ervaring in HR?")

Kitty Brussaard Mar 26, 2015:

Agree with Barend I also don't see any problem in combining (1), (2) and (4) - see Michael's comment below - with 'knowledgeable' in the sense of 'having or showing knowledge/insight'. Or more informally, 'knowing one's stuff/business/ropes'. This doesn't strike me as odd at all. IMO the only odd thing here is the way 'inhoudelijk' is being used in the source sentence ('hij is ..... inhoudelijk'), for the reasons I've already given below. The assumed contrast between (1)/(2)/(3) versus (4) is an interpretation which may seem likely but which is not supported by the use of 'en' (NOT 'but' or a similar conjunction). All in all, the only problem I see here is the awkward and unclear phrasing of the source sentence. A problem we won't be able to solve in any conclusive way without input from the author/client :-)

Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 26, 2015:

What is peculiar about:

He is calm, rational and knowledgeable (about) and...
He is self-controlled, rational and knows his business and...

Where for heaven's sake is this sore thumb ?

Kitty Brussaard Mar 26, 2015:

Different angle? As the Dutch is unclear i.c. sounds awkward - normally speaking one would either say that someone is 'inhoudelijk sterk / inhoudelijk goed onderlegd' or 'gericht op de inhoud' - we should perhaps take a different angle and steer away from both 'knowledgeable' (even though I still consider this a good option) and 'content-oriented/focused/driven' (as this seems an odd characteristic to attribute to any person). How about: (...) provides substantive input / is focused on providing substantive input? Or something along those lines?

Natasha Ziada (X) Mar 26, 2015:

@Michael "Trouwens, heb jij ooit iemand horen zeggen: "hij is inhoudelijk", en dat ze dan bedoelen dat ie goed geïnformeerd is (knowledgeable)??? Ik niet hoor."

Ik wel hoor. Heb jij jaren ervaring in HR?

Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 26, 2015:

I would like to add:

1) 'knowledgeable' can also be read read as, and should be read as, since this was meant, 'knowledgeable about' - verstand hebben van

2) 'inhoudelijk' can be read as:

a) inhoudelijk goed onderlegd
b) inhoudelijk sterk

a + b --> knowledgeable about/knows his stuff etc.

c) op de inhoud gericht

I consider a and b more likely than c

Why? It is about him, he is 'inhoudelijk'.

If you talk about 'op de inhoud gericht', you are talking about a something, something external, or at least an 'object', that a person focusses on.
It would no longer be about him, at least not in a direct way.

Michael Beijer Mar 26, 2015:

Look at the 4 things in the sentence: "Hij is (1) beheerst, (2) rationeel en (3) inhoudelijk en (4) kan de mensgerichte kant in de communicatie nog meer opzoeken."

What do they all have in common, in my reading? In my reading, they are all 4 ... character traits (for lack of a better word) of Mr X.
In your reading, 3 of them are character traits (1,2 and 4), and one of them isn't: 3. "Knowledgeable" sticks out like a sore thumb. Which leads me to think it probably isn't the correct translation.

Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 26, 2015:

I have had a look over at Translator Cafe right now.

I find 4 persons who read it more or less the same way as knowledgeable/ knows his stuff:

- 'profound'
- this person basically knows what he is talking about
- someone well-versed in their trade, field or profession
- to the point

Nobody can be sure this is an incorrect reading and I maintain that Moira is right: "content-oriented, a very odd way to describe anyone ;-) "

Michael Beijer Mar 26, 2015:

:@ re Moira's "but I think some of the answers are a bit too content-oriented/focused/driven - seems to me a very odd way to describe anyone ;-) "

Not at all. "beheerst, rationeel" just fits better with "content-focused" than with "knowledgeable".

Sorry, maar "knowledgable" past gewoon niet in het rijtje. Die man is "een beetje autistisch", in het volksmond. Dáár gaat het om.

Trouwens, heb jij ooit iemand horen zeggen: "hij is inhoudelijk", en dat ze dan bedoelen dat ie goed geïnformeerd is (knowledgeable)??? Ik niet hoor.

Ik sluit me bij Jack en Stieneke aan.

Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 26, 2015:

This means: “Hij is beheerst, rationeel en inhoudelijk en kan de mensgerichte kant in de communicatie nog meer opzoeken” -->

of course you can read this like:

“Hij is beheerst, rationeel en inhoudelijk/'heeft inhoud'/is inhoudelijk sterk/weet waar hij het over heeft/knows his business en kan de mensgerichte kant in de communicatie nog meer opzoeken”

Apart from this, I agree with Moira:

"but I think some of the answers are a bit too content-oriented/focused/driven - seems to me a very odd way to describe anyone ;-) "

Jack den Haan Mar 26, 2015:

Re: Stieneke, "I think this is a polite way to..." Exactly!

Michael Beijer Mar 26, 2015:

@katerina: this is totally normal language in employee assessments. they want to figure out what kind of person they might be hiring

Stieneke Hulshof Mar 26, 2015:

I think this is a polite way to point out that the man is 'cool and rational' but he could indeed be more human in his communications. It's probablynot be ment to be sarcastic in itself, but it indeed includes an observation of lacking the human-oriented traits and it suggests he should/could develop himself into that direction. In some assessments they do include these kind of observations.

katerina turevich Mar 26, 2015:

oh, I understand it's more like this guy lacks these traits, and is completely rational, content oriented and NOT really approachable or open to personal involvement? Is it a kind of sarcasm?

I think this is a fascinating question. Is it normal to give an employee assessment such judgmental twist?

Michael Beijer Mar 26, 2015:

@katerina: I think you are misreading "en kan de mensgerichte kant in de communicatie nog meer opzoeken" with your statement "content-driven and able to add a personal touch to the negotiations/communication". I think it means the opposite. See my comment, as well as Jack's.

katerina turevich Mar 26, 2015:

I agree with Stieneke and Evgeny,
It doesn't necessarily mean that the person is knowledgeable/erudite, but rather that he can contribute to the content of what's going on. That means that he is merely clever, and able to maintain the conversation on a zillion different topics (there are people like that with an incredible memory, able to memorize whatever comes their way - they are few and in between; so maybe the term is used in an ironic way to describe a ‘walking encyclopedia ‘- i.e. "content-driven and able to add a personal touch to the negotiations/communication"
Am I off the track here? I think this is right on spot. Funny, I noticed there are all sorts of words being created/differently used in Dutch recently.

Evgeny Artemov (X) Mar 25, 2015:

Yes, the person is full of <s>beans</s> content, I think.

Stieneke Hulshof Mar 25, 2015:

Als je het mij vraagt is 'inhoudelijk' inderdaad niet hetzelfde als 'goed op de hoogte/goed geinformeerd' en ook niet per se heel ervaren, al is een goed geinformeerd persoon vast ook heel 'inhoudelijk' :)

Michael Beijer Mar 25, 2015:

See also Stieneke's ref: "People-oriented
Those who are people-oriented show a strong concern for others and their feelings." <tt>[= "kan de mensgerichte kant in de communicatie nog meer opzoeken"]</tt>

vs

"Content-oriented
People who are content-oriented are interested more in what is said rather than who is saying it or what they are feeling." <tt>[= "beheerst, rationeel en inhoudelijk"]</tt>

(http://changingminds.org/techniques/listening/listening_styl... )

Furthermore, I have never seen "inhoudelijk" used to mean "knowledgeable" (goed geïnformeerd, goed op de hoogte, als een kenner, etc.). I agree that "inhoudelijk goed onderlegd" can mean / be translated as "knowledgeable", but that's not what this text says.

Michael Beijer Mar 25, 2015:

The sentence seems to be part of one of those employee assessments. As mentioned by Jack, "(beheerst, rationeel en) inhoudelijk" [which he is] is apparently being used in opposition to 'de mensgerichte kant in de communicatie' [which the author wishes he would be/do]. That is, he is "beheerst, rationeel en inhoudelijk", but would benefit from a bit more of a human touch ("kan de mensgerichte kant in de communicatie nog meer opzoeken").

Therefore, I don't think that you should translate "inhoudelijk" as "knowledgeable" or "has a lot of expertise". I think the author is referring to the fact that he works in a controlled, rational and content-focused manner, but that he would benefit from "zoeking op" de mensgerichte kant in de communicatie, so to speak.

Evgeny Artemov (X) Mar 25, 2015:

So is 'inhoudelijk' after all. I like the author's creative approach. ;-)

MoiraB Mar 25, 2015:

don't know about this guy but I think some of the answers are a bit too content-oriented/focused/driven - seems to me a very odd way to describe anyone ;-)

katerina turevich Mar 25, 2015:

content-driven employee another buzzword :))

Evgeny Artemov (X) Mar 25, 2015:

I'd try "contentful" Nice buzzword, after all.

Michael Beijer Mar 25, 2015:

He has a separate and independent existence. :-) substantive (adjective):

1. Having a firm basis in reality and so important, meaningful, or considerable
2. Having a separate and independent existence.
2.1. (Of a rank or appointment) not acting or temporary; permanent:
2.2. (Of an enactment, motion, or resolution) made in due form as such; not amended.
3. (Of law) defining rights and duties, as opposed to giving the procedural rules by which those rights and duties are enforced.
4. (Of a dye) not needing a mordant.

(http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/substan... )

"The employee has a separate and independent existence." ???

Michael Beijer Mar 25, 2015:

See also: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/dutch_to_english/human_resources/5...

Michael Beijer Mar 25, 2015:

Hmm ... can a person be "content-focused"? I suppose they can.

Yeah, I hate this word. Here is my current CafeTran glossary:

substantive;
relevant
the concepts behind;
intrinsic;
essential;
subject-matter;
as regards contents;
the substance;
an X on the substance of;
as regards the contents of;
in terms of content;
in its contents;
intrinsic;
informed;
that relate to the content;
contents;
content;
the contents of;
in substance;
intrinsic worth;
on its merits;
specifics;
detailed;
professional;
evt. weglaten in vertaling