This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
\"stürmte\" as conditional
Restplätze
Nov 17, 2015 17:25
8 yrs ago
German term

is auch gefallen

Non-PRO German to English Other Poetry & Literature old war poem
,,Kerl, sage mir lieber, ob Lüttich brennt
Und ob Boncelles Schutt und Asche?«

,,Das Fort ist still, und noch ein Stoß,
Dann ist auch Lüttich gefallen,

Is the last line
Then/in that case Liege has also fallen or
and Liege will have fallen, too ?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 will also fall
3 +1 will also have fallen
3 is fallen
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (1): barbarameyer

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:

An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)

A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).

Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.

When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.

* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.

Discussion

Yini (asker) Nov 18, 2015:
@Björn I know that a great grand uncle volunteered in the French army and died right away. I think the bitter defeat of the 1870 war was in the minds of many people in France and maybe the enthusiasm there was stronger. Yes, I read that in Germany it was not so strong among the common people despite the fact that they must have felt threatened (even before the war started) on two fronts by Russia and France (they had a strong alliance) and even in the north by the English powerful navy, when England declared war.
Björn Vrooman Nov 18, 2015:
@Yini Anytime. I think the overall tragedy of the war was that despite public enthusiasm having been largely dispelled as a myth, there were cheering supporters volunteering across Europe and most of them seem to have been young middle-class men. As if boredom had given them nothing else to do.

For a comparison with WWI poems written in English, see
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/article/248460
Yini (asker) Nov 18, 2015:
@Björn -Thank you for the links - (re: kerl) and the accounts about the sad fate of the Belgians at the beg. of WWI abandoned by both French and British.
Björn Vrooman Nov 17, 2015:
On the same day, the 14th, the garrison commander of Fort Fleron, Capt Mozin, decided that after 50 hours of continuous bombardment, his remaining men could stand no more. Fleron had provided strong resistance to German assaults for 5 days, and at the same time had provided very effective artillery support to the other forts. Boncelles fell on the same day, and the Germans now had complete control of the right bank.

Leman's HQ did not escape. The first shells fell on the 10th. From the 14th it received 420mm shells, and it finally fell on the next day when a shell blew up the magazine. All of the internal doors blew open with the pressure from the blast, and many men were hit with debris. Not a single man remained unwounded. Shortly after this, the Germans saw that the gun cupolas were no longer firing, and infantry assaulted the ramparts. Leman, and the fort commander Capt Naessens, were brought out unconscious and taken to a German military hospital.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/liege.htm

Ok, you convinced me. Push seems fine.
Björn Vrooman Nov 17, 2015:
Here I got the direct reference to the poem. Inevitably under constant and increasing fire, the forts began to fall. Fort Barchon was first. A bombardment by heavy 210mm Skoda mortars ended the resistance, and at 5pm on the 8th August the remainder of the garrison surrendered. The Germans promptly began the big engineering job of moving the mortars to a position where they could fire on Evegnee. They opened fire on the evening of the 10th, and the white flag was raised the following morning.


From the 12th August, even heavier guns became available to the Germans as the first of the 420mm mortars opened up.

The first shell missed its target - but when, following corrections made by observation from a balloon, the fire moved slowly onto target. Fort Pontisse fell soon after, on the afternoon of the 13th. Three quarters of the garrison of the fort died, many from smoke and concussion from the huge explosions. The same day, Embourg and Chaudfontaine fell. At the latter, hundreds died at the same moment when a heavy shell struck the munitions store.

Fort Liers stood for a further day, as Belgian artillery fire from Milmort was so effective that it held the Germans at some distance.
Björn Vrooman Nov 17, 2015:
@Helen Only said "favor." The German says "und noch ein Stoß," whereas the push in your reference means: "A large-scale attack on enemy positions."

As I read the description of the Battle of Liege, there were bombardments, but it sounds as if the strategy was a string of quick attacks at multiple fronts. Still, it was a day-long siege and it seems as if one fort was captured after another. "noch ein Stoß" would mean to me one more attack on the remaining fort (Boncelles was one of those) to effectively capture the city.

Less than a push to me, but that may be personal preference.

PS: I think Stoß here refers to the expression "den Todesstoß versetzen."
Helen Shiner Nov 17, 2015:
@Björn Push is something used in military contexts in EN. See 'push' here: http://spartacus-educational.com/FWWglossary.htm
Björn Vrooman Nov 17, 2015:
Short note Compared to English, German tends to be more lenient about which tense to use.

You would say "Mein Mann ist im Krieg gefallen," but "My husband died in the war."

Here, it should actually read: "Noch ein Stoß und dann wird auch Lüttich gefallen sein." -> no adjective, but future perfect, i.e., will have fallen (as Helen suggested).

I'd favor thrust over push, though, as Ramey did. It could also just be "one more attack/charge"?

Is this about the conquest of Liege by German troops during WWI?
Helen Shiner Nov 17, 2015:
@Björn Thank you.
Björn Vrooman Nov 17, 2015:
Nice to see Helen here again - we would have needed you for a question not too long ago :)!

May I ask what Yini means by "also" having no antecedent? The "auch" is in the German, is it not?

On a side note, not sure, Yini, why (when you asked in another forum) one person said Kerl would be highly derogatory.

Not certain I can burden you here with reading Grimm's dictionary:
http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lem...

But this one should be more to the point:
http://www.dwds.de/?qu=kerl
Yini (asker) Nov 17, 2015:
Heheh Ramey One of my cats favorite place is in front of my screen.
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 17, 2015:
Perhaps "Man, tell me now, is Liege in flames
and Boncelle laid waste in ruins?"
"The fort is silent and one more thrust,
then Liege is also fallen."
I think that works as a projection.
Yes, Helen, I'm grand! But my cat is laying over my left arm, so my typing is somewhat hampered.
Helen Shiner Nov 17, 2015:
@Ramey I'm fine thanks. I hope you are, too.
Helen Shiner Nov 17, 2015:
@Yini 'Still' in EN, would suggest no movement as well as quiet, and that is there in the GER 'still'.
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 17, 2015:
Hi Yini the previous couplet asks if Liege is burning and Boncelles destroyed. The reply is that the fort (Boncelles) is still (deathly quiet) or still is (remains), but that's my mistake, it probably means deathly still.

@ Helen yes, it's a bit antiquated (is fallen) but so it the poem! Hope you're well.
Helen Shiner Nov 17, 2015:
@Yini I think the also refers to Boncelles being in Schütt und Asche, so effectively fallen.
Yini (asker) Nov 17, 2015:
Helen "will also fall" sounds good - but the 'also' has no antecedent
Yini (asker) Nov 17, 2015:
Hi Ramey Somebody told me that the translation is "the fort is quiet" but remains seems more appropriate
Helen Shiner Nov 17, 2015:
Hi Ramey Yes, thrust would be fine. I don't think "is also fallen" is strictly right, though. Might work poetically if needed to scan.
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 17, 2015:
Interesting cognitive The fort remains, yet one more thrust and Liege is also fallen...
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 17, 2015:
Hi Helen! Long time no hear! Perhaps 'thrust' for Stoß?
Helen Shiner Nov 17, 2015:
Stoß though there are various ways of translating it.
Helen Shiner Nov 17, 2015:
@Yini one more push, and then Liège will also have fallen.

Proposed translations

+3
6 mins
German term (edited): ist auch gefallen
Selected

will also fall

Just another push, and Liège will also fall.

You could also say "will have fallen" or even "has fallen", but the main thing is it's in the future.
Peer comment(s):
agree Donald Jacobson
7 mins
agree Danik 2014
40 mins
agree Clive Phillips
1 hr
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I'll go with the majority here. Thanks."
2 hrs

is fallen

For what it's worth, I see 'fallen' here as an adjective, not as a verb.
Something went wrong...
+1
14 hrs

will also have fallen

I'm not very good in grammar, but usually my gut feelings about this are right. When the last thrust has been dealt and the sword removed, the body of the victim will have fallen: I know it will start falling after that, but also in German the tense indicates that it is already on the ground, possibly in the sense that the last thrust was dealt when it already was on the ground, like a mercy kill, the finishing blow etc.
Example sentence:

After the last thrust, also Liege will have fallen.

Peer comment(s):
agree Horst Huber (X) : "Will have" is the point, future perfect participle.
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search