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kopadviesaanvraag

Glossary entry

Dutch term or phrase:

verkommerden en verloederden

English translation:

the neglected and destitute

Added to glossary by katerina turevich
Jun 2, 2016 18:32
7 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Dutch term

verkommerden en verloederden

Dutch to English Medical Medical (general) mental health
more of the same

as far as I can make out, it's a new/another definition formulated in 2002 in Research voor Beleid.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 the neglected and destitute
4 the neglected and degenerate
4 -1 vulnerable people/groups
References
Ref FF - definitie
refs

Discussion

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 11, 2016:
:-) Katerina oh Katerina, dear Katerina,

Possibly you have problems with religious overtones.
You find an enormous amount of "neglected and destitute" Google-hits.
Most of them related to children but also a significant number related to other groups.
These hits are often related to charity, often practised by religious organizations.

Please remember, the Netherlands basically is a country of ministers and farmers, its our legacy.

:-)

A few examples

It is grievous to think how long this specious fallacy of unlet sittings, has deluded and prevented us from doing our duty to a neglected and destitute population.

Neglected and destitute, some turned to vagrancy and crime, ending up in prisons.

...in alleviating the sufferings of some neglected and destitute class of society.

...to labour at providing the means of instruction for the neglected and destitute.

Table culture in the dining hall bestows human dignity and acknowledgement on the neglected and destitute.

Etc.
katerina turevich (asker) Jun 9, 2016:
@Barend, Yes, I saw it one page lower (further too). Two other groups are children and the elderly. So what are these people ? I think if 'geestelijkezorg' is concerned, it must be those with 'geestelijke stoornissen'. Am I completely off? How about sociaalzwakken?
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 9, 2016:
Hello Katerina,

I think you should refer to Freek's link, which is the most specific.

However, even if you look at this one, you can see one page lower that 'verkommerden en verloederden' refers to one type of vulnerable group among a large number of other vulnerable groups.

As has been pointed out before for that matter.
katerina turevich (asker) Jun 9, 2016:
yes? then it's got to be "vulnerable".

I am not convinced. Take a look at this : https://books.google.nl/books?id=tzpSR9ChqFIC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA... . If you look in the text for the phrase in quotes, you see it is an issue dealt with by openbaare volksgezondheidzorg (OGZ) en geesteljke gezondheidzorg (OGGZ).
In other words, they may fall into the Bijstandswet, like any other destitute people, but first they are identified as mental patients.
Please, take a look at the above.
Kitty Brussaard Jun 9, 2016:
Agree with Barend's last entry On all counts :-)
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 9, 2016:
I see what you mean, Katerina, but I don't think 'verloederd' refers to a mental decline of these people.

According to the definition, it rather refers to their economic and social decline.

Also, it would be unlikely to use a term like 'verloederen' for someone's 'geestelijke achteruitgang'.

I would stick to the definition: "niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden kunnen voorzien"
katerina turevich (asker) Jun 9, 2016:
another option is "infirm and neglected".
It helps that Australia and New Zealand have enacted a "Health (Infirm and Neglected Persons) Regulations" intended to cover the same group of people, http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/global-publications/... , but it seems to be used in other places, too. https://www.google.nl/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=eCVZV9XBDOyI8Qfhk72QDg&g...
katerina turevich (asker) Jun 9, 2016:
Hi guys, Thank you very much for all your support.

I have two comments: vulnerable is too large a concept. This is about mental patients, or spectrum - those on the brink, those who do not get health care for whatever reason and yes, they visibly go down.
My problem with "degenerated' is : the origins of this word is in the genes/genus, right?. I wouldn't want to introduce this kind of labeling (in the law).

"neglected and mentally deteriorated" is an option.
Michael Beijer Jun 5, 2016:
indeed Either in Dutch, or in English, on their own, none of these strange phrases will mean much to anyone who chances upon them for the first time. Which is why context is important.
Kitty Brussaard Jun 5, 2016:
Om weer even terug te keren naar de vraag Het hele probleem bij deze term - en bij de andere drie termen/begrippen - is dat je er als lezer alle kanten mee op kunt zonder de bijbehorende toelichting/definitie waarin e.e.a. nader wordt afgebakend. Dit geldt m.i. ook voor alle pogingen om een Engels equivalent te vinden. Daarom voel ik zelf het meest voor een oplossing zoals eerder hieronder door Michael voorgesteld.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
@katerina: what do you mean exactly by, "it's for a glossary dating back to those times"?
do you mean that you are translating a glossary written in 2002?
if it's a glossary, is also defined in your glossary?

i.e., can you give us any more of the surrounding context of the term?
katerina turevich (asker) Jun 4, 2016:
I keep on thinking meanwhile I'd like to ask: "abandoned and downtrodden". Would that work?
though it sounds a bit old fashioned for a group of people defined in 2002.
As for context, as I said already in the other posting, it's for a glossary dating back to those times, so unfortunately I have no more context, but I did find quite some information on the web.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
okey-dokey! Have fun at your party! Suppose I'll get back to my boring marketing text :-)
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Overigens moet ik nu naar een feestje, dus ik ben off.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Het is een kwestie van inschatting, Michael.

"niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden kunnen voorzien"

When you think of the word destitute, which means poor or lacking other necessities of life, think of someone who is in desperate straits. A very, very tight budget is poor. Living on the streets is destitute.

Destitute essentially means not having something. When you're destitute in the sense of being poor, you're technically "destitute of money." You can be destitute of other things as well. If all your friends have abandoned you, you're "destitute of friends." If you are applying for a job as a waitress but have never worked in a restaurant in any capacity, you're "destitute of experience."

Please also have a look at the image in the link of the poem.

Daarnaast moet je 'verloederden' niet te letterlijk nemen.
'verloederden' kan ook gekozen zijn onder de druk om er een alliteratie van te maken.
Ik laat me vooral leiden door de omschrijving van 'verloederden':

"niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden kunnen voorzien"

100% equivalentie is normaliter al niet haalbaar, laat staan hier.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
de term stamt trouwens uit 2000-iets. vraag me af hoe de overheid die mensen nu noemt
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
OK, net gedaan Ik kan deze stap niet volgen:

"persoon die niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden kan voorzien => verloederde => the destitute"

"bestaansvoorwaarden" is a very vague term.
Van Dale defines it as "omstandigheid die noodzakelijk is voor het bestaan". What the heck does that even mean? I suppose: house, money, clothes, etc. So, the person is unable to provide themselves with these things. But I just don't think the single word "destitute" conveys all of this.

Then again, maybe it does. Who am I to judge? In any case, I would definitely use some sort of solution as I just now outlined, with the brackets and explanation, so it makes some sense to the poor reader.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
je bent altijd heel duidelijk Barend, en toch... Or maybe ... just choose one of our ill-fitting, literal translations (such as "The neglected and destitute") and do sth like this, the first time the term is mentioned in the text:

‘Verkommerden en verloederden’ (roughly: ‘The neglected and destitute’)(a specific subset of vulnerable groups/populations as defined by the Trimbos Institute and Research voor Beleid)

The next time the term appears, you can then choose to use only the original, or the English approximation.

*****************************
ik zal je referentie nog even doorlezen
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Ik ben hierover heel duidelijk geweest in mijn referentie.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
als ik alleen even hier naar kijk:

"Deze definitie luidt als volgt:

Vooronderstelling is dat het om een diffuse groep gaat, die om wat voor reden dan
ook ontoereikende zorg krijgt en/of niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden
kan voorzien. Gedacht wordt aan dak- en thuislozen, zorgwekkende zorgmijders,
zichzelf verwaarlozende, gemarginaliseerde groepen. Deze mensen kunnen al
dan niet ernstige en langdurige psychische stoornissen en/of verslavingsproblemen of
een combinatie van deze kenmerken hebben. Het gaat bij de ‘verkommerden en verloederden’
niet alleen om de zichtbare groep op straat, maar ook om de onzichtbare
groep mensen die in hun woning een marginaal bestaan leidt."

dan zie ik dat gewoon niet terug in "the neglected and destitute". jij wel?
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
hmm You do seem to have a point there.

And yet, I don't think that any of our suggestions so far cover the complete meaning of the Dutch definition. However, as I said, neither does the Dutch term, so perhaps it's not such a bad thing to mirror this inconsistency in one's translation.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Ik weet wat vulnarable groups zijn

1) het is veel te algemeen (Elderly, Children, Women, Survivors of violence,· people with physical or mental disabilities, Ethnic minorities)

2) Het is niet waar het hier om gaat. Het gaat hier om de specifieke levensomstandigheden (te weinig zorg, het ontbreekt hen aan van alles) van een bepaalde groep kwetsbare mensen van wie het leven ook een andere wending had kunnen nemen.

Maar volgens mij heb ik dat al eerder gezegd.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
On the other hand, katerina's text might require her to explain very clearly that this is a Dutch concept/term specific to a particular era/context, with a specific meaning, perhaps first giving it in Dutch, followed by a loose translation in brackets in English. As I said though, more context would be useful.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
Barend, je herhaalt steeds het woord "kwetsbaren", which might be part of why you are missing my point. I'm not saying anything about the Dutch turn "kwetsbaren", and how it is or might be used or understood in the Netherlands. I'm saying that, in English, in the UK, the term "vulnerable people/groups" is often used these days to refer to exactly these kinds of people, which is why I suspect that it might be better to use it rather than resort to some forced-sounding, more literal translation. Assuming that the target text will be read by someone in the UK or US, most likely a native speaker, it would probably be better to try and find something they are actually already familiar with, and which sounds like sth that would be used in 2016, rather than 1894.

re the meaning of the term in its original context, I agree that freek's PDF is good, but this tells us very little about how it is being used in katerina's text. some information about this would go a long way towards ensuring that whatever term we choose fits well in the surrounding text.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Michael Ik denk dat je geen betere context kan hebben dan die koppeling van FF, in ieder geval gaat het om die 'verkommerden en verloederden'.

Het betreft een inventarisatie van mensen die zich in een toestand van 'verkommering en verloedering' bevinden.

Daarnaast heb je die totale context niet nodig om in te zien dat 'kwetsbaren' te ver af staat 'verkommerden en verloederden'.

Wat dat betreft kan ik herhalen wat ik mijn vorige entry heb gezegd.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
katerina hasn't given us any context yet so there is no way of saying whether it is te ver af van de oorspronkelijke tekst.

As to it being wrong on logical grounds, I disagree with you (obviously).

Regarding it being too general, I don't think that your solution covers everything in the Dutch list, whereas mine does. The problem, of course, is that the Dutch "verkommerden en verloederden" also doesn't cover everything in the original Dutch list, which makes matters quite confusing.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
'Victorian' of niet, dat is niet het punt.

Het staat te ver af van de oorspronkelijke tekst en is op logische gronden niet juist.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
@Barend: Both "the neglected and destitute" and "the neglected and degenerate" sound almost Victorian, whereas "vulnerable people/groups" is a modern term used in our day and age to refer to the group of people the Dutch government is worrying about, and wishes to study/help.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Nee, Michael, om 'verkommerden en verloederden' te vervangen door 'kwetsbaren' gaat echt een stap te ver en is ook niet juist.

We hebben het niet over 'kwetsbaren' maar over mensen die reeds de gevolgen ondervinden van hun kwetsbaarheid.

Daarnaast is dit begrip veel te algemeen.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
@Barend: I think you need to take a step back, and put down your microscope. ;-)

"verkommerden en verloederden" is een verzamelnaam voor een groep mensen. "vulnerable people" is gewoon een goed Engels verzamelnaam voor exactly this group. (goede Engelse?)
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
The point is here that these people are in a state of 'verkommering' and 'verloedering'.

You cannot ignore that by referring to something that might lead to it.
freekfluweel Jun 4, 2016:
Aha! ... and koe = mammal
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
@freek: Regarding your red "Disagree":

That doesn't matter freek. I think it works as an umbrella term for the Dutch concept at hand. Just because the Dutch meaning doesn't include ALL POSSIBLE MEANINGS of the umbrella term, this doesn't mean it can't be used here. I think it is better than anything else proposed, as it is more general (but not too general as to no longer be applicable), and includes everything in the Dutch definition's list.

"vulnerable people/groups" covers everything in the Dutch definition's list. The fact that "vulnerable people/groups" might include a concept that is not contained in said list does not invalidate its applicability here.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
"vulnerable people/groups" as an umbrella term I think your two quotes are explained by the fact that the report is about homelessness.

I do think the term "vulnerable people/groups" nicely summarises the list I provided earlier (which mirrors the list in the official Dutch definition):

this group of people are/may (be):
▶ marginalised
▶ neglected
▶ destitute
▶ degraded
▶ degenerate
▶ have unsufficient access to care
▶ are unable to take care of themselves
▶ often homeless
▶ avoid accessing care
▶ neglect themselves / pay no attention to / don't care for their health/appearance
▶ suffer from serious or long-term/chronic psychiatric problems or addiction problems
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Ik zou zeggen dat 'verkommering' en 'verloedering' eerder een gevolg zijn van 'vulnerability'.

Wat wordt bevestigd door:

It may be helpful to reflect upon the causes and nature of vulnerability as it affects the risk of homelessness

"Fourth, actions by institutions / organisations (e.g. prison
services, foster care services, social landlords) can leave vulnerable
people at risk of homelessness.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
THEREFORE: the term "vulnerable people/groups" seems to be used to cover all of the individual groups referred to in the NL concept of "de verkommerden en verloederden"
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
contd #2
[…]

To improve service provision to socially vulnerable people
authorities and agencies in the Netherlands, especially in the
larger towns and cities, are making steady progress in creating
continuums of services, often in separate frameworks for
different target groups. Examples are service continuums to
respond to domestic violence; integrated services for longterm
drug-dependent, often homeless individuals with long
criminal records; or through-care programmes for homeless
street youth.

[…]

Rather less than half (42%) of all projects had socially vulnerable
people in general as their target group; 58% had specific
target groups. The three most prominent vulnerable groups
were homeless people, people with mental illness and people
with substance dependency."
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
contd "Fourth, actions by institutions / organisations (e.g. prison
services, foster care services, social landlords) can leave vulnerable
people at risk of homelessness.

[…]

In the Netherlands, the health ministry’s Action Plan against
Public Disorder and Nuisance, approved by the cabinet in
December 2004 (Ministerie van VWS, 2004) aims to secure
firmer commitment to inter-agency collaboration within a continuum
of services to vulnerable people. Efforts to target this
group are designated as ‘public mental health services’ (openbare
geestelijke gezondheidszorg or OGGZ). Public mental
health work is not the domain of a separate service or sector."
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
"vulnerable people/groups": see: http://www.feantsaresearch.org/IMG/pdf/2005_interagency_work... in which the term "vulnerable people/groups" seems to be used

"ADDRESSING HOMELESSNESS IN EUROPE

"It may be helpful to reflect upon the causes and nature of vulnerability
as it affects the risk of homelessness since this will
influence our understanding of the definition of homelessness
and of the nature of service provision to meet the needs of
vulnerable groups and so prevent homelessness. However,
different terms are commonly in use which reflect different
and perhaps discrete understanding of the nature of vulnerability
- for example, ‘socially vulnerable people’, ‘marginalised
people’, ‘neglected people’, ‘excluded people’, the
‘disadvantaged’ and the ‘underprivileged’ are terms to be
found in different documents and national action plans.

[…]

A recent study examining the profile of vulnerable
people in different sectors - community health, homeless,
mental health care and addiction services - argued that
they had just two things in common: care needs that did not
match the available services, and involvement in problems
with institutions (Bransen et al, 2001)."
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
speaking of vertalingen ... look what I found:

"Lourens J., Scholten C., van der Werf C., Ziegelaar A. (2002). Verkommerden en verloederden: Een onderzoek naar de omvang en aard van de groep in Nederland [The depraved and neglected: A study on the size and nature of the population in the Netherlands]. Leiden: Research voor Beleid."

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4230954/ )

ouch! ;-)
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
based on the Dutch definition, ... this group of people are/may (be):

▶ marginalised
▶ neglected
▶ destitute
▶ degraded
▶ degenerate
▶ have unsufficient access to care
▶ are unable to take care of themselves
▶ often homeless
▶ avoid accessing care
▶ neglect themselves / pay no attention to / don't care for their health/appearance
▶ suffer from serious or long-term/chronic psychiatric problems or addiction problems

Phew! That's quite a lot to pack into two words.

Incidentally, there is some overlap with the concept of "vulnerable people" and "vulnerable groups", which is used quite a bit here in the UK.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
list of synonyms for destitute: penniless, impoverished, poverty-stricken, poor, impecunious, indigent, down and out, pauperized, without a penny to one's name, without two farthings/pennies to rub together;
insolvent, ruined;
needy, in need, in want, hard up, on the breadline, hard-pressed, in reduced/straitened circumstances, deprived, disadvantaged, distressed, badly off;
beggarly, beggared
informal on one's uppers, up against it, broke, flat broke, strapped (for cash), without a brass farthing, without a bean, without a sou, as poor as a church mouse, on one's beam-ends
British informal stony broke, skint, boracic (lint)
North American informal stone broke, without a red cent, on skid row
formal penurious

definition: "Extremely poor and lacking the means to provide for oneself"

(oxforddictionaries.com)

(note how they almost all refer to money, or a lack thereof)
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
The question then is: are all of the above points covered in the phrase "the neglected and destitute"? I'm not sure. Then again, if the phrase is used in a text where it is then defined or explained right after it appears, the problem is less of a problem of course.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
here is the official definition: "Deze definitie luidt als volgt:

Vooronderstelling is dat het om een diffuse groep gaat, die om wat voor reden dan
ook ontoereikende zorg krijgt en/of niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden
kan voorzien. Gedacht wordt aan dak- en thuislozen, zorgwekkende zorgmijders,
zichzelf verwaarlozende, gemarginaliseerde groepen. Deze mensen kunnen al
dan niet ernstige en langdurige psychische stoornissen en/of verslavingsproblemen of
een combinatie van deze kenmerken hebben. Het gaat bij de ‘verkommerden en verloederden’
niet alleen om de zichtbare groep op straat, maar ook om de onzichtbare
groep mensen die in hun woning een marginaal bestaan leidt."

Thus:

een groep die ontoereikende zorg krijgt en/of niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden kan voorzien

bv.:
dak- en thuislozen,
zorgwekkende zorgmijders,
zichzelf verwaarlozende, gemarginaliseerde groepen.

kunnen al dan niet ernstige en langdurige psychische stoornissen en/of verslavingsproblemen of
een combinatie van deze kenmerken hebben.

niet alleen om de zichtbare groep op straat, maar ook om de onzichtbare groep mensen die in hun woning een marginaal bestaan leidt.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
hmm, the problem seems to me, that neither is entirely right, and don't quite cover all the things meant in the official definition. however, we are trying to limit ourselves here to two terms, I suppose, when perhaps three might be better
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Michael het is handiger als je alleen de entries geeft die van toepassing zijn maar...

Er wordt niet bedoeld dat deze personen zijn gedegenereerd (wat de strekking is van die dictionary entries die je aanhaalt).

Veeleer wordt er bedoeld dat deze mensen in belabberde materiële/economische omstandigheden terecht zijn gekomen, op straat leven, geïsoleerd zijn geraakt, etc.

verloederden:

personen die niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden kunnen voorzien
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
"The Women’s and
Children’s Court was the scene of a local transformation in the nature and exercise
of judicial authority, a transformation which both individualized the criminal and
humanized the magistrate, who now functioned as a potent exemplar, a source of
“healing, affirming forces, and … fine spiritual qualities” to be absorbed by the
“neglected and degenerate” passing through her Court (56). The introduction of
individualizing techniques (“patient and intensive study of the woman’s history …
in order to rehabilitate her in the light of her disabilities, capabilities and
adaptabilities” [Murphy 1926a: n.p.]) made the courtroom a space of concern and
expert examination rather than debate, and pressed prosecution and defense into
the work of collaborative parental advising." (http://topia.journals.yorku.ca/index.php/topia/article/downl... )
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
there is a slight difference in meaning between:

"the degenerates"
+
"the degenerate"
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
OED contd: degenerate (VERB):

1a. of persons: intr. To lose, or become deficient in, the qualities proper to the race or kind; to fall away from ancestral virtue or excellence; hence (more generally), to decline in character or qualities, become of a lower type.

b. of animals and plants.

c. transf. and fig. of things.

d.1.d Geom. Of a curve or other locus: To become reduced to a lower order, or altered into a locus of a different or less complex form.

†2. To show a falling-off or degeneration from an anterior type; to be degenerate. Obs.

†3.3 To become or be altered in nature or character (without implying debasement); to change in kind; to show an alteration from a normal type.

†4.4 To fall away, revolt. Obs. rare.

5. trans. To cause to degenerate; to reduce to a lower or worse condition; to debase, degrade.

†6.6 To generate (something of an inferior or lower type). Obs. rare. Hence deˈgenerating vbl. n. and ppl. a.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
@Barend: Yes, I know, I mentioned that potential problem, but I think the term means more than just morally corrupt/depraved, etc.

See e.g. the OED:

degenerate (NOUN):
One who has lost, or has become deficient in, the qualities considered proper to the race or kind; a degenerate specimen; a person of debased physical or mental constitution.

*****************************
degenerate (ADJECTIVE):
1a. of persons: Having lost the qualities proper to the race or kind; having declined from a higher to a lower type; hence, declined in character or qualities; debased, degraded.

b. of animals and plants: spec. in Biol. (cf. degeneration 1b).

c. fig. of things. (In Geom. applied to a locus of any order when reduced to the condition of an aggregate of loci of a lower order.)

2. transf. Characterized by degeneracy.

*****************************
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Michael nog twee dingetjes:

- Probeer: "the degenerates" op Google

- En van de opties in deze dictionary link zijn alleen de volgende van toepassing:

adjective: Morally corrupt or given to vice.

noun: A depraved or corrupt person.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/degenerate
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
Michael, dat zijn natuurlijk vertalingen.

Ik ben niet blij met 'degenerate'.

Maar het is aan Katerina en de community om een beslissing te nemen.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
second WHO report: "NETHERLANDS

[…]

In the first place, epidemiological research and the statistics on trends in the use of care services point towards a steep rise in demand, particularly for outpatient care. […]

In the second place, the nature of the demand for care is changing: many people with chronic psychiatric problems want to be given the opportunity to remain part of the community. This means the further transformation of residential care into outpatient care.

A third matter of concern is that the mental health care sector has to establish a much more explicit presence in regard to a number of social problems. Examples include incapacity for work as a result of mental problems, the problems surrounding the ‘neglected’ and ‘degenerate’, as well as the mental health problems of prisons, abuse, loneliness and poor living conditions. Details can be obtained about the mental health care facilities from the ‘Fact Sheet Mental Health care’ published in August 2000. […] "

http://www.who.int/mental_health/evidence/atlas/profiles_cou...
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
the “neglected” & “degenerate” used in WHO report just found 2 official reports using my suggestion: "the neglected and degenerate"

see: "Mental Health in Europe - Country reports from the WHO European Network on Mental Health " © World Health Organization – 2001

@ http://www.dypethessaly.gr/docs/E76230.pdf

"NETHERLANDS
Matters of concern
Dutch mental health care is facing three major challenges:
▶ Epidemiological research and the statistics on trends in the use of care services point towards a steep rise in demand, particularly for outpatient care. […]
▶ The nature of the demand for care is changing: many people with chronic psychiatric problems want to be given the opportunity to remain part of the community. This means the further transformation of residential care into outpatient care.
▶ The mental health care sector has to establish a much more explicit presence with regard to a number of social problems. Examples include incapacity for work as a result of mental problems, the problems surrounding the “neglected” and “degenerate”, as well as the mental health problems of prisons, abuse, loneliness, and poor living conditions
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
the OED is maybe a bit better: OED:

destitute

†1.1 Abandoned, forsaken, deserted. Obs.

1b. Of persons: Forsaken, left friendless or helpless, forlorn. (Blending at length with sense 3.)

†2.a Deprived or bereft of (something formerly possessed). Obs. b.2.b Devoid of, wanting or entirely lacking in (something desirable).

†2.c Bereft of power to do something. Obs. rare.

3.3 Bereft of resources, resourceless, ‘in want and misery’; now, without the very necessaries of life or means of bare subsistence, in absolute want.
   The 16th c. quotations from the Bible have perhaps properly the sense ‘forlorn’ (1 b); but they appear to have led the way to the modern sense, which is not recognized by Johnson, and is only approached in other 18th c. Dictionaries.

†4.4 Civil Law. Of a will: Rendered of no effect by reason of the refusal or incapacity of the heirs therein instituted to take up the inheritance (testamentum destitutum); abandoned. Obs.

B. as n. One who is destitute, without friends, resources, or the means of subsistence.
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
I don't think "necessitous" works. It sounds odd, plus is too narrow, imo.

My problem with "destitute", is it seems very focused on not having money/resources, rather than the various items mentioned in the official definition.

see e.g.:

Collins:

Someone who is destitute has no money or possessions. (FORMAL)
e.g.: ...destitute children who live on the streets.
*****************************
Chambers:

[adj] destitute: in utter poverty; entirely lacking in (with of); left alone, forsaken (obsolete).

[n] destitution: the state of being destitute; poverty; deprivation of office.
*****************************
oxforddictionaries.com:

[adj] destitute: Extremely poor and lacking the means to provide for oneself:
e.g.:
– the charity cares for destitute children
– How does Dr. Singh give 400 million of the poor and the destitute a stake in Indian democracy?
– Old age homes are necessary, but essentially for the destitute and the poor.
– He lived the high life as a London yuppie and threw it all away to work with the poor and destitute in Liverpool slums.
freekfluweel Jun 4, 2016:
negelected and necessitous to keep the alliteration
Michael Beijer Jun 4, 2016:
@Barend: Ha ha, just noticed that I quoted the same definition of the group "Verkommerden en verloederden" (the one in freek's PDF) as you did in your answer.

Incidentally, I think "The neglected and destitute" probably covers it nicely, just not 100% sure it's my favourite solution yet. I definitely agree with "neglected" (as I suggested myself), but am still pondering verloederden/destitute/degenerate/etc.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2016:
I would suggest (see definition) The neglected and destitute

destitute🔊

When you think of the word destitute, which means poor or lacking other necessities of life, think of someone who is in desperate straits. A very, very tight budget is poor. Living on the streets is destitute.

Destitute essentially means not having something. When you're destitute in the sense of being poor, you're technically "destitute of money." You can be destitute of other things as well. If all your friends have abandoned you, you're "destitute of friends." If you are applying for a job as a waitress but have never worked in a restaurant in any capacity, you're "destitute of experience."

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/destitute
Michael Beijer Jun 3, 2016:
it's a shame the term "degenerate" (noun) is so strongly linked to "An immoral or corrupt person", because otherwise sth like this might work nicely:

Verkommerden en verloederden
=
The Neglected and Degenerate

actually, I think "degenerate" can probably be used here.
Tina Vonhof (X) Jun 3, 2016:
Based on the text Freek quotes, I would translate this as 'they would languish and deteriorate'.
freekfluweel Jun 3, 2016:
unfortunate and unattended unplaceable and unattended
freekfluweel Jun 3, 2016:
forgotten? 147 pages of research prove otherwise...

'De angst werd toen geuit dat psychiatrische patiënten, omdat zij onder de Bopz niet meer voor eigen bestwil konden worden opgenomen, tussen wal en schip zouden vallen, ofwel zouden ‘verkommeren en verloederen’. (p7)

http://www.psychiatrieweb.mywebhome.nl/pw.oggz/files/docs/rv...
.
katerina turevich (asker) Jun 2, 2016:
I got it it means "isolated and forgotten"

Proposed translations

+1
1 day 7 hrs
Dutch term (edited): de verkommerden en verloederden
Selected

the neglected and destitute

See definition

When you think of the word destitute, which means poor or lacking other necessities of life, think of someone who is in desperate straits. A very, very tight budget is poor. Living on the streets is destitute.

Destitute essentially means not having something. When you're destitute in the sense of being poor, you're technically "destitute of money." You can be destitute of other things as well. If all your friends have abandoned you, you're "destitute of friends." If you are applying for a job as a waitress but have never worked in a restaurant in any capacity, you're "destitute of experience."

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/destitute

The Destitute

I am the man, all wrapp’d up in his old
grey coat to hold the coldness out—to hold
the warmth inside, with my small share of life
that wavers like some ember from my soul;

when you walk by this coat, I almost move
you—almost stop you—but there isn’t room
enough tonight for kindnesses that big
beside so many other things you’d rather do

https://johnlaurits.com/2016/05/23/poem-the-destitute/
Peer comment(s):
agree Michael Beijer : OK, you convinced me, sort of. 1st time it appears, maybe sth like: ‘Verkommerden en verloederden’ (roughly: ‘The neglected and destitute’)(a specific subset of vulnerable groups/populations as defined by the Trimbos Institute and Research voor Beleid)
13 hrs
Thank you, Michael. I am satisfied with it as is, especially when 'explained' by the further context.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Many thanks to everybody for their input! "
1 day 15 hrs
Dutch term (edited): de verkommerden en verloederden

the neglected and degenerate

See my extensive Reference comment and Discussion entries.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day15 hrs (2016-06-04 10:28:57 GMT)
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test

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Note added at 1 day15 hrs (2016-06-04 10:29:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

just found 2 official World Health Organization reports using my suggestion.

see e.g.:

"Mental Health in Europe - Country reports from the WHO European Network on Mental Health " © World Health Organization – 2001

@ http://www.dypethessaly.gr/docs/E76230.pdf

"NETHERLANDS
Matters of concern
Dutch mental health care is facing three major challenges:
▶ Epidemiological research and the statistics on trends in the use of care services point towards a steep rise in demand, particularly for outpatient care. […]
▶ The nature of the demand for care is changing: many people with chronic psychiatric problems want to be given the opportunity to remain part of the community. This means the further transformation of residential care into outpatient care.
▶ The mental health care sector has to establish a much more explicit presence with regard to a number of social problems. Examples include incapacity for work as a result of mental problems, the problems surrounding the “neglected” and “degenerate”, as well as the mental health problems of prisons, abuse, loneliness, and poor living conditions."
Example sentence:

Examples include incapacity for work as a result of mental problems, the problems surrounding the ‘neglected’ and ‘degenerate’, as well as the mental health problems of prisons, abuse, loneliness and poor living conditions.

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-1
1 day 17 hrs
Dutch term (edited): (de) verkommerden en verloederden

vulnerable people/groups

I know we are officially not supposed to enter two answers, but I have changed my mind and would like to leave my original answer up for posterity. See my extensive Reference comment and various Discussion entries.
Example sentence:

The three most prominent vulnerable groups were homeless people, people with mental illness and people with substance dependency.

A recent study examining the profile of vulnerable people in different sectors - community health, homeless, mental health care and addiction services - argued that they had just two things in common: care needs that did not match the available [… ]

Peer comment(s):
disagree freekfluweel : Newborns and senior citizens are also 'vulnerable people'...
5 mins
"vulnerable people/groups" covers everything in the Dutch definition's list. The fact that "vulnerable people/groups" might include a concept that is not contained in said list does not invalidate its applicability here.
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Reference comments

1 day 7 hrs
Reference:

Ref FF - definitie

The neglected and destitute

personen die ontoereikende zorg krijgen => verkommerde => the neglected

persoon die niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden kan voorzien => verloederde => the destitute

Daarom werd besloten een definitie van verkommerden en verloederden te hanteren, waar men in het veld mee uit de voeten kon, die ruimte voor eigen interpretatie laat, omdat hulpverleners vanuit de eigen achtergrond accenten leggen, maar waar men volgens het vooronderzoek en de pilot min of meer hetzelfde onder verstaat.

Deze definitie luidt als volgt:
Vooronderstelling is dat het om een diffuse groep gaat, die om wat voor reden dan ook ontoereikende zorg krijgt en/of niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden kan voorzien.

Gedacht wordt aan dak- en thuislozen, zorgwekkende zorgmijders, zichzelf verwaarlozende, gemarginaliseerde groepen. Deze mensen kunnen al dan niet ernstige en langdurige psychische stoornissen en/of verslavingsproblemen of een combinatie van deze kenmerken hebben. Het gaat bij de ‘verkommerden en verloederden’ niet alleen om de zichtbare groep op straat, maar ook om de onzichtbare groep mensen die in hun woning een marginaal bestaan leidt.

Het onderzoek is gestart met een vooronderzoek. Hierin stonden de afbakening van het begrip verkommerden en verloederden centraal en het inventariseren van vindplaatsen van verkommerden en verloederden.
Op basis van interviews bij 40 instellingen in 6 gemeenten is een weloverwogen keuze gemaakt voor de op te nemen respondenten en instellingen in het onderzoek en is aan hen de definitie van verkommerden en verloederden voorgelegd

http://www.psychiatrieweb.mywebhome.nl/pw.oggz/files/docs/rv...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Kitty Brussaard : Idd, wij hebben inmiddels meer dan voldoende context. Ik doelde met mijn opmerking in de D-box eigenlijk op de relatieve 'nietszeggendheid' van zowel de NL term als iedere EN vertaling ervan voor de 'argeloze' lezer :-)
1 day 12 hrs
Meer context kun je niet wensen en heb ik niet nodig. // Wat ook precies de reden is waarom ik bij deze vraag wel een antwoord heb gegeven. // Je bedoelt waarschijnlijk ...voor de argwanende lezer. :-)
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1 day 14 hrs
Reference:

refs

oxforddictionaries.com:
degenerate:

adjective:
Having lost the physical, mental, or moral qualities considered normal and desirable; showing evidence of decline

verb:
Decline or deteriorate physically, mentally, or morally

noun:
An immoral or corrupt person
*****************************
destitute:

adjective:
Extremely poor and lacking the means to provide for oneself
*****************************
Van Dale:

• verloederen:
degenerate

(informeel) go to the dogs, go to pot

context:
een verloederd type / mens = a degenerate, a depraved / debauched character

• verloedering:
corruption
degradation, degeneration
*****************************
JurLex:

verloederen:

(van gebied) to go downhill, to become blighted, to become run down, to deteriorate
(m.b.t. personen) to degenerate, to let oneself go, to go to the dogs
*****************************
Van Dale NL:

verloederen

1 tot een loeder worden
1a (jachtterm) (van een dood stuk wild dat niet gevonden wordt; ook van vis gezegd) verrotten, vergaan
2 (oneigenlijk) in zedelijk of materieel opzicht vervallen, te gronde gaan, aan lagerwal raken, verlopen, slonzig worden, verarmen

*****************************

"Achterblijvers
Specifiek sociaal beleid blijft nodig naast het algemene beleid dat de RMO adviseert. Met name is aandacht nodig voor de ongeveer 60.000 sociaal kwets-bare mensen, zoals het Sociaal en Cultured Planbureau die benoemt. Het zijn verkommerden en verloederden, thuislozen en mishandelde en verwaarloosde jongeren, die het vertrouwen in overheden, hulpverlening en soms zichzelf, volledig zijn verloren. In het advies 'Kwetsbaar in kwadraat’doet de RMO de volgende aanbeveling:
— Vorm zogenaamde S-teams, dwars door bestaande organisaties heen. Zij bieden medewerkers de mogelijkheid om allerlei probleemaspecten tegelijk en integraal aan te pakken. Zo groeit de wereld van de instellingen naar de leefwereld van sociaal kwetsbare mensen toe."

(https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wtES6Z0jsfEC&pg=PP10&lpg... )

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day15 hrs (2016-06-04 09:40:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This is going to be a long one, but worth reading, as it contains an actual, official definition of the group "Verkommerden en verloederden" by … "Research voor Beleid in samenwerking met het Trimbos-instituut in opdracht van het Ministerie van VWS".

"Verkommerden en verloederden
Een onderzoek naar de omvang en aard van de groep in Nederland

In onderzoek
van de Taskforce Vermaatschappelijking (2002) schatten huisartsen en hulpverleners uit de GGZ dat zij het merendeel van de ‘mensen in de marge’ [1] in beeld hebben. Eenderde van de groep ‘mensen in de marge’ zou naar hun inschatting buiten het beeld van de hulpverlening blijven.

[…]

Totale omvang verkommerden en verloederden
Crossvalidatie met ander onderzoek blijkt niet goed mogelijk. De eerste beperking is gelegen in het feit dat naar de groep verkommerden en verloederden als geheel niet eerder onderzoek is gedaan. Wel naar min of meer vergelijkbare groepen zoals sociaal kwetsbaren (RMO, 2001) en ‘mensen in de marge’ (Taskforce Vermaatschappelijking, 2002) waarbij de definiering van de groep soms net anders is. Als ook resultaten van enkele recente onderzoeken worden betrokken van groepen, waarvan een deel kan behoren tot de groep verkommerden en verloederden [2] blijkt dat met name de gehanteerde tel - en berekeningsmethodiek – voorzover al uit de publicaties te achterhalen is – verschilt per onderzoek.

[…]

De totale schatting van de Taskforce (50.000 – 90.000) komt het dichtst in de buurt van de schatting van het aantal verkommerden en
verloederden. [3]

Het rapport van de RMO inzake de groep sociaal kwetsbaren – een groep die grotendeels hetzelfde gedefinieerd wordt als de verkommerden en verloederden [4] – geeft een schatting van geregistreerde sociaal kwetsbaren (50.000–65.000) die veel hoger uitvalt dan het in dit onderzoek gevonden aantal geregistreerde verkommerden en verloederden (33.000).

[…]

Bij de start van het onderzoek betrof de ‘groep verkommerden en verloederden’ een niet nader gedefinieerde groep, waarvan VWS heeft gevraagd de kenmerken en de omvang vast te stellen. Het gaat om een beleidsmatige c.q. politieke term, die in het onderzoek nader geoperationaliseerd diende te worden. Dat is gedaan met behulp van een deskundigenpanel, een pilotonderzoek in het veld en de Begeleidingscommissie.

Het gevaar van cirkelredeneringen bij het in kaart brengen van kenmerken van een groep, die nog gedefinieerd moet worden in het onderzoek, dringt zich op.

[…]

Daarom werd besloten een definitie van verkommerden en verloederden te hanteren, waar men in het veld mee uit de voeten kon, die ruimte voor eigen interpretatie laat, omdat hulpverleners vanuit de eigen achtergrond accenten leggen, maar waar men volgens het vooronderzoek en de pilot min of meer hetzelfde onder verstaat.

********Deze definitie luidt als volgt:********

Vooronderstelling is dat het om een diffuse groep gaat, die om wat voor reden dan
ook ontoereikende zorg krijgt en/of niet of niet voldoende in de eigen bestaansvoorwaarden
kan voorzien. Gedacht wordt aan dak- en thuislozen, zorgwekkende zorgmijders,
zichzelf verwaarlozende, gemarginaliseerde groepen. Deze mensen kunnen al
dan niet ernstige en langdurige psychische stoornissen en/of verslavingsproblemen of
een combinatie van deze kenmerken hebben. Het gaat bij de ‘verkommerden en verloederden’
niet alleen om de zichtbare groep op straat, maar ook om de onzichtbare
groep mensen die in hun woning een marginaal bestaan leidt.
******** ******** ******** ******** ******** ********

[footnotes:]

[1] Gedefinieerd als: Mensen met een ernstige psychische handicap, voor wie het moeilijk is een volwaardige plaats in de samenleving te verkrijgen. Bij deze mensen kon al dan niet sprake zijn van dak- en thuisloosheid en/of verslaving.

[2] Zoals dak- en thuislozen, verslaafden, psychische/psychiatrische patiënten.

[3] Lastig in de vergelijking is dat weer een iets andere definitie wordt gehanteerd. De gehanteerde definitie van ‘mensen in de marge’ lijkt af te wijken van de definitie van verkommerden en verloederden, omdat zij een psychische handicap als insteek voor de schatting hanteert. Tegelijkertijd blijkt wel de groep sociaal kwetsbaren meegenomen in de schatting: een groep die weer grote overeenkomsten vertoont met verkommerden en verloederden.

[4] Definitie luidt: ‘Mensen die op verschillende terreinen ernstige problemen ondervinden, bijvoorbeeld wonen, dagbesteding, contacten, psychische en fysieke gesteldheid en die om redenen samenhangend met de ernst en complexiteit van hun problematiek geen gebruik kunnen, mogen, durven of willen maken van voorzieningen die bedoeld zijn om een of meer van deze problemen te verlichten.’"

(freek's link: http://www.psychiatrieweb.mywebhome.nl/pw.oggz/files/docs/rv... )
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Kitty Brussaard
1 day 5 hrs
Thanks Kitty!
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