Björn Vrooman Dec 15, 2018:

I thought the NFA website was actually very helpful. If you look at the page about IBs, you'll see when registration is required:
https://www.nfa.futures.org/registration-membership/who-has-...

One of the list items describes an AP; another is
https://www.nfa.futures.org/registration-membership/who-has-...

There, it says:
"A non-U.S. entity that transacts business directly with U.S. customers solely in futures contracts and options traded on foreign exchanges is exempt from registration if:

It is a futures commission merchant (FCM) subject to a comparable regulatory structure by a foreign regulator which has been granted an exemption by the CFTC or an introducing broker (IB), commodity pool operator (CPO) or commodity trading advisor (CTA) without a U.S. office; and..."

Even if we aren't talking about US customers, it seems as if we end up with the same two types of brokers: FCMs and IBs. Somehow, that makes me think we are dealing with an IB here, but I was hoping someone else with more knowledge of this would have participated in the discussion.

In any case, thanks for reading all of this.

Best

Björn Vrooman Dec 15, 2018:

Hello Timothy "Björn, I could not go with your recommendation of an..."

That's fine. I did say I am not an expert in this field. Though you could have provided this other bit of info (that the defendant was an FCM). Your link:
"Danach durfte der Vermittler gegen Entgelt über die Brokerfirma für von ihm angeworbene Kunden Termingeschäfte an amerikanischen Terminmärkten durchführen."

"The consent order stems from a CFTC complaint ...in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Georgia charging Introducing Broker (IB) American Derivatives Corp. (ADC) and related parties with fraudulently inducing customers to purchase commodity futures option contracts and failing to supervise employees."
https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr5460-08

"Except as provided in 1.65, no futures commission merchant, or in the case of an introduced account no introducing broker, may open a commodity futures account for a customer, other than for a customer specified in paragraph (f) of this section..."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/17/1.55

Opening an account is also part of your link.

[...]

Timothy Wood (asker) Dec 13, 2018:

Thank you I have decided to go with "futures options broker." It was definitely the closest that I could come up with, based on the discussion and the need to be concise. Björn, I could not go with your recommendation of an FCN, because the FCN was the defendant in this case, and the Terminoptionsvermittler was a description of the German-based Plaintiff. But you were correct to point me to the possibility of "futures option." The long discussion was partially helpful. Thank you to everyone who contributed.

Bruce Campbell Dec 4, 2018:

Björn is right "Terminoption" = "option on futures" or "futures option"

Björn Vrooman Dec 4, 2018:

Also, just because you have never heard of that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In fact, I can't even look for a "forward options broker"; you won't really find it. If at all, it's just an options broker:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Options_broker

Why would you suggest using a string of nouns in English? More than two is possible but mostly not necessary or wanted.

Moreover, I don't want to repeat what I had already posted. The AFA calls them "options on futures" (see link below) and if the link from Taiwan isn't up to standard:
"Futures contracts are traded on exchanges, making them standardized contracts. Forward contracts are private agreements between two parties to buy and sell an asset at a specified price in the future. There’s always the chance one party in a forward contract may default. Futures contracts have clearing houses that guarantee the transactions."
https://www.investopedia.com/video/play/explaining-forward-a...

Same in German: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-8349-9526-1_...

It's both Termin in German, but futures or forwards in English. How do you know what it is here?

Best

Björn Vrooman Dec 4, 2018:

Birgit First off, we agree about LEO. I don't know why I still have to go around telling people that LEO is a database compiled by IT students from TU Munich. They aren't and have never been translators. The original intent was not to create something that could pass off as a dictionary in some people's minds, but the LEO guys were tired of not finding a database containing IT(!) terminology.

Second, I also agree about GT. I'm part of a German-American household and every time my better half, who is American, asks me something about German, I have to say, "Put away GT. Don't look it up on there; ask me." The program can handle simple sentences, but that's about it. Certainly not specialist knowledge.

However, I don't understand the rest of your argument. Just because something has been around for 20 years doesn't mean it's good, just that a lot of people buy it. Scams have been with us since the dawn of the internet age and you wouldn't suggest they're good because of that fact, would you?

[to be continued]

Birgit Gläser Dec 4, 2018:

to add my two cents... wow...hot debate....
Well the Zahn, albeit written by a German is one of the best sources for financial terminology... it has been recently updated, though I contend it is in some parts a bit aged... it has been around for 20 years or more... and if anyone is interested, I do recommend the electronic version that is only available from the publishers, Fritz Knapp Verlag....

As to the terms... we are selling financial software, so from a product point of view I have only ever seen futures & options, but not futures options... and as to the forward start optiosn... they are only forward options in current usage, the start must have gotten lost on the way for being too long...

And I can confirm that I have never found anything useful on Leo for financial terms. That may be a great tool for tech students to jot down their glossaries, but I even tell my school-age children not to use Leo, because it is full of %&*#!! and they are only in their first years of learning English. ...

As an online dictionary, I would recommend Linguee as they offer standard dictionary entries along with bilingual examples from the web, although these, too, have to be taken with a grain of salt....

Björn Vrooman Dec 3, 2018:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/606416/European-Union-E...

I'd fully trust them regarding explanations in German, though I'm a bit skeptical about everything else. In any case, it's not part of their glossary pages: http://www.eurexchange.com/exchange-en/education/glossary

I had a look at your link, but all I could find there were some documents containing the word FCM; nothing about clearing and non-clearing members and no definition. If there had been, we could have had a discussion about it. Not an expert in these kinds of things, but so far, I haven't seen anything that would prove me wrong--and I have no issue with being proven wrong.

Side note: forward options are part of over-the-counter trading. How do you know that this is what happened here? Another tidbit from the link I posted:
"Einer dieser Vermittler war W., der über eine deutsche aufsichtsrechtliche Erlaubnis als selbständiger Finanzdienstleister verfügte. [...They conclude an IB agreement...] Der Kläger schloss mit W. einen formularmäßigen Geschäftsbesorgungsvertrag über die Durchführung von Optionsgeschäften."

I think it's OK as is, but let's see what others have to say.

Best

Sebastian Witte Dec 3, 2018:

I understand from previous translator training attended that Eurex website = one of the premier sources of financial reference translations, like all Deutsche Börse websites are.

Björn Vrooman Dec 3, 2018:

Sebastian Here's your translation:
"Der Futures Commission Merchant ist nichts anderes als ein Terminbörsenmakler. Der Futures Commission Merchant, ist eine Einzelperson oder Firmen, die Kauf- und Verkaufsaufträge für Futures entgegennehmen und ausführen kann. FCMs müssen bei der CFTC (Commodity Futures Trading Commission) und bei der NFA (National Futures Association) registriert sein und ein ständiges Mindestkapital von 100 000 US-Dollar aufrechterhalten."
https://www.boersennews.de/lexikon/begriff/futures-commissio...

You don't need to go to an EU website (I don't speak Eurish very well). I had already posted this link: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fcm.asp

There are clearing and non-clearing members. In the other link I posted, it said:
"Die der englischen Finanzaufsicht unterliegende Beklagte bietet neben institutionellen Kunden auch Privatkunden ihre Execution- und Clearing-Dienste für den Handel mit Derivaten an. Privatkunden können über Vermittler Handelsaufträge einreichen, die von der Beklagten abgewickelt werden."

[bankundkapitalmarkt.de; see below]

Maybe it's too late for me today, but I don't know what you're trying to say?

Best

Björn Vrooman Dec 3, 2018:

If the... ...American National Futures Association isn't good enough, then I don't know what will be enough for you:
https://www.nfa.futures.org/registration-membership/who-has-...

To be honest, I am somewhat puzzled by this trust in dictionaries written by Germans. I'd pay for a good glossary but for this?

I know it's easy to have some DE-EN books ready, so that you only need to pick a translation that sounds reasonable to you. Unfortunately, that is not how it works in this business (at least, it shouldn't). I've looked at some of the technical dictionaries and half of the terms are B.S. that no ENS would use. They're just made-up words basically. Why would you think two editors could be enough to fill a book with 60K+ translations?

You have to use monolingual sources and compare those. It's similar to what happened here: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/german-to-english/real-estate/659...

Dunno why you ignored my comments. For the record, I studied law and the answer chosen sounds like nonsense. It doesn't help that this one book has an ENS author or editor; the translation is too literal. Native speaker sources should take priority.

Sebastian Witte Dec 3, 2018:

The following is just a research-based find and not something I really understand or can comment on: As per the website of the Eurex derivatives exchange in Eschborn, the position of Futures Commission Merchant is not translated into German (OK, no problem, I can still follow, there is just not a direct equivalent for this job title at the German derivatives exchanges), but it then goes on when you find out that these professionals also have a securities clearing-related role. This is where I cannot follow Björn's rationale anymore. Since when is a broker involved in securities clearing? https://www.eurexchange.com/exchange-de/suche/3728!search?wt...

Timothy Wood (asker) Dec 3, 2018:

@Sebastian Yes, that second link to the subscription was easier to work through!

Timothy Wood (asker) Dec 3, 2018:

@Björn + @Pallavi I take note that Björn favors FCN as the translation for Terminoptionsvemrittler. Pallavi, do you know if this is the common term for India and/or further afield, i.e., the US?

Sebastian Witte Dec 3, 2018:

The subscription price looks more promising here http://www.acolada.de/xist4c/web/Zahn--Woerterbuch-Bank--und...

Sebastian Witte Dec 3, 2018:

@ Timothy Yes, you are correct. There is a subscription-based version https://www.kater-verlag.de/Abonnement-Woerterbuecher/Woerte... but most own the download or CD-ROM, and so do I.

Timothy Wood (asker) Dec 3, 2018:

@ Sebastian Thank you. Am I correct thinking that Zahn is not a free lexicon?

Björn Vrooman Dec 3, 2018:

Timothy "I'm not sure if an IB is correct here..."

I said nothing about an IB being the person you're looking for. The end of the sentence shows you need an FCM. At least, that's what I understood the Terminoptionsvermittler to be. The company delegated the work, as shown by the link you posted.

Here's the definition for it:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fcm.asp

That does sound to me like what happened in that court case,

Besides, there's an American company involved. You can't have it easier than this. It means you just need to figure out which company and what they did when and where. I'll have to finish some work still, but the second-to-last link in my previous post described the situation you linked to, I believe. I'm sure there are others similar to it; if a U.S. company is involved, it means they may use more English than German.

Sebastian Witte Dec 3, 2018:

Timothy https://www.kater-verlag.de/info/Zahn-Download-Bank--und-Boe...

Timothy Wood (asker) Dec 3, 2018:

Forward options vs. futures and options My understanding is that forwards, futures, and options are separate derivative financial products. In that respect, I am leaning towards the "futures and options"...@Björn, thank you for the multiple links to various dictionaries. It appears that "futures options" really can be combined, i.e., they are not necessarily separate. I'm not sure if an IB is correct here, because it obviates the need for specifying and limiting the brokerage work to "futures and options." @Sebastian, thank you also for your contribution. What does "Zahn" refer to?

Björn Vrooman Dec 3, 2018:

Terminoptionen:
http://www.banklexikon.info/d/terminoptionen/terminoptionen....
http://www.banklexikon.info/d/options-on-futures/options-on-...

Options on futures or futures options:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/options-on-futures.asp

Futures options trading:
https://brokerchooser.com/learn-trading/futures-options-trad...

Difference between forward and futures:
https://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~lyuu/Capitals/lessons_der.pdf

They aren't the same.

Here's the difference explained in German:
http://www.kunnskap.de/der-unterschied-zwischen-einem-future...

Though this is all pretty much irrelevant. You simply need to look up your case(!). See:
https://www.bankundkapitalmarkt.de/newsletter-inhalte/1770-z...

It's about an introducing broker agreement:
"An introducing broker (IB) is a broker in the futures markets who has a direct relationship with a client, but delegates the work of the floor operation and trade execution to another futures merchant, typically a futures commission merchant (FCM)."
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/introducingbroker.asp

Sebastian Witte Dec 3, 2018:

When taking your pick please do not only look at the number of Google hits, the explanation provided and pay homage to the native speaker principle, but kindly remember that the translation also has to be technically correct, at least to a certain extent. I am technically not strong enough a contributor to really comment on the matter but the only resource I have found that suggests that Terminoptionshandel refers to trading in futures options here rather than trading in forward options is a general dictionary, viz. dict.cc, which, as opposed to LEO, which is already a somewhat shaken contestant in that respect, does not even have the tiniest reputation for accuracy in financial translation, even if it has replaced LEO as the #1 general online dictionary between German and English in terms of popularity.

Sebastian Witte Dec 3, 2018:

Zahn helping you understand his translations Forward Start Option - Option, die erst zu einem späteren Termin in Kraft tritt. ▼ Basiswert und Fälligkeitstermin werden bei Kontrakterwerb bestimmt, auch die Prämienzahlung erfolgt zu diesem Zeitpunkt. Der Basispreis wird jedoch erst bei Optionsaktivierung festgelegt und i.d.R. dem dann aktuellen Kassakurs des Basiswertes entsprechen.

Forward Option Contract
1. Terminoption ▼ Termingeschäft, bei dem die Erfüllung nicht zu einem bestimmten Termin erfolgen muss, sondern innerhalb einer bestimmten Frist (option period) vorgenommen werden kann.
2. → Forward Start Option

Sebastian Witte Dec 3, 2018:

As per dict.cc and Google the term in question means futures option broker.

https://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/option.html
futures option Option {f} auf einen Terminkontrakt (fin.)

As per a dictionary by highly quality-oriented, academic Oldenbourg Publishers on international trade and Pons, Terminoption is forward option. This would result in the translation "forward options broker", which is a word that does not exist as a Google hit. "Forward option", in turn, does much better.

I think I would wait for derivatives expert contributions if time was not of the essence or otherwise, I would take the Zahn entry as a starting point as Zahn is the #1 resource for financial market translation between German and English, in either direction, which outshines even boutique publications from scientific publishers with a rather small number of entries.

If you enjoy reading German, you might wish to type "Optionen, Futures und andere Derivate" into the Google box as that book or major portions of it can be read online via the Amazon product link there or Google Books. I know this book. Cannot comment on whether it is really one of the new standard publications on the topic - it might be.

Sebastian Witte Dec 3, 2018:

Cannot contribute much I'm afraid other than that Terminoption = forward start option as per Zahn. In this particular case, I do agree with Google that Vermittler = broker and so does Zahn. I cannot comment on any legitimacy of creating a compound noun from the foregoing as I only use Google to check compound noun translations formed where I already have a good feeling about the compound noun in advance of running the check.