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2 X voyage
disport
Feb 20, 2021 19:47
3 yrs ago
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English term

Simple Past or Past Perfect

English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
Which tense is more appropriate in the paragraph below? On one hand, John remembers the events that happened before a certain moment in the past, i.e. he first hit the vehicle and then remembered it and all the following events, which calls for Past Perfect. On the other hand, the sequence of events is clear, which means that Simple Past will work too. Any comments/suggestions? Thank you!

John looked at his car. The car wasn’t drivable. He remembered the moment he (had) hit the other vehicle very well. He remembered the blue sedan that (had) stopped abruptly in the middle of the road. There was (had been) no time to hit the brakes. His life (had) flashed before his eyes. His car (had) rear-ended the blue sedan and the airbags (had) deployed. John looked at the wrecked car again, shook his head and decided to walk home.
Responses
4 +3 The first 2 verbs, "hit" and "stop", should be past perfect, the others should be past tense.
5 +1 looked (simple past); remebered (sp); had hit (past perfect); remembered (sp); had stopped (pp); was
4 +1 All in the simple past
4 +1 mix of past simple + past perfect

Discussion

Oliver Simões Feb 26, 2021:
Talyb You're very welcome. It was a pleasure. I want to learn more about Jami Gold's literature. I love to read authors who think out of the box. And that goes for grammar too. (Did I miss a comma? :-)
Helena Chavarria Feb 26, 2021:
Some interesting information 1.2 Number of native and non-native English speakers
There are 378 million native speakers (those who speak English as their first language) and 743 million non-native speakers (those who speak English as their second language) in the world.

https://lemongrad.com/english-language-statistics/#:~:text=T...
Yvonne Gallagher Feb 26, 2021:
@ Helena Looks like we are wasting our breath. A non-native speaker asks a question in a monolingual English forum and prefers the (incorrect) advice of other non-natives rather than those of us who actually teach English. So, just ignore grammar rules and renowned style guides such as the Chicago Manual of Style. Says it all really about what Kudoz has become :- ((
Helena Chavarria Feb 26, 2021:
@Kiet Yes, really.

'The ambulance had come. The police had also come and [not necessary to repeat the auxiliary verb here] made a report. The other driver had been taken to the hospital...'.

By the way, in English, the ellipsis consists of three dots, not five.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis#British_English
Helena Chavarria Feb 24, 2021:
I also agree with Heather
Helena Chavarria Feb 24, 2021:
Yvonne Gallagher's answer is the best one FWIW: I was born in Kent (S.E. England), I went to primary school in what had been Charles Dickens' old home (Gad's Hill, an independent school since 1924) , I've taught EFL for over 20 years and I have a licentiate (5-year) degree in English Philology.

John looked at his car. The car wasn’t drivable. He remembered the moment he had hit/hit the other vehicle very well. He remembered the blue sedan that had stopped abruptly in the middle of the road. There had been no time to hit the brakes. His life had flashed before his eyes. His car had rear-ended the blue sedan and the airbags had deployed. John looked at the wrecked car again, shook his head and decided to walk home.
Heather Carroll Feb 22, 2021:
‘hit’ is the only optional one The first verb, hit, can be either simple past or past perfect, depending on how vivid you want to imply the memory is - technically it happened prior to ‘he looked at the car’, so should be past perfect, but simple past gives a sense of remembering it vividly in that moment. However, all the other events take place prior to that first one (the hit), so they have to be in the past perfect. The only other option would be the gerund, which would give the sense of him reliving the moment, eg He remembered the blue sedan stopping abruptly...
Arabic & More Feb 22, 2021:
My initial reaction to the paragraph was that it might actually be an EFL grammar exercise from a school assignment or book. If this is the case, then we can state with certainty that Yvonne's answers are definitely the best ones for such a context since such exercises are designed to help one recognize the differences between the relevant tenses. Otherwise, the text could benefit from some rewriting since the "choppiness" of it is not particularly natural, and I don't think that (incorrectly) using the simple past is an effective remedy for this problem. Perhaps the Asker could provide more information about the text and help put any debate to rest.
Yvonne Gallagher Feb 21, 2021:
@ Arabic & More @ Asker @ Arabic & More Thank you! Yes, of course this could be written more smoothly. In fact I find these short sentences or "telegraphic style rather odd in the circumstances. Following the verb "(he) remembered" I'd have expected a more stream-of-consciousness style to mimic remembering such as: He remembered well the moment he'd hit the other vehicle, the blue sedan stopped abruptly in the middle of the road, so there'd been no time to hit the brakes. His life had flashed before his eyes as his car had rear-ended the blue sedan and the airbags had deployed...
Note also that some "had"s would become "'d"
Arabic & More Feb 21, 2021:
I agree with Yvonne's response but would also point out that the paragraph provides some opportunities to combine sentences for a smoother read, which may also change the tenses in some cases. For example:

John looked at his car. The car wasn’t drivable.
Could become: John looked at his car and realized that it wasn't drivable.
(same tenses but less choppy)

His life had flashed before his eyes. His car had rear-ended the blue sedan and the airbags had deployed.
Could become:
His life had flashed before his eyes as his car rear-ended the blue sedan and the airbags deployed.
(overall sentence still in PP but second and third verbs changed to sound more natural)
Oliver Simões Feb 20, 2021:
Jami Gold "After her hostile takeover of LexCorp—er, after a decade of writing boring technical manuals and project plans, Jami Gold decided to become a novelist. That way she could put her talent for making up stuff to good use, including winning the 2015 National Readers’ Choice Award in Paranormal Romance for the novel Ironclad Devotion in her Mythos Legacy series."

I suggest you all read Jami Gold's article "Beyond the Past: Understanding the Past Perfect Tense". If you are in a hurry, skip to the "Do We Have Too Many Hads in Our Writing?" section and focus on Tip no. 3.

Thank you, Jami, for bringing some common sense to the debate.

https://jamigold.com/2020/04/beyond-the-past-understanding-t...

Responses

+3
14 mins
Selected

The first 2 verbs, "hit" and "stop", should be past perfect, the others should be past tense.

For the first 2 verbs, "hit" and "stop", there is a comparison of time sequence with the verb "remember" in the same sentence. The other verbs don't have. So, it should be:

John looked at his car. The car wasn’t drivable. He remembered the moment he had hit the other vehicle very well. He remembered the blue sedan that had stopped abruptly in the middle of the road. There was no time to hit the brakes. His life flashed before his eyes. His car rear-ended the blue sedan and the airbags deployed. John looked at the wrecked car again, shook his head and decided to walk home.
Peer comment(s):
agree Oliver Simões : Agreed. His recollections were past, linear events (hence, the simple past) except for "had hit" and "had stopped", which are clearly in relation to the act of remembering. https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/154647/past-tense-wh...
1 hr
Thank you!
agree Diego Cortez : I agree too, the two first verbs he remembers something that happened before that moment, and the following verbs are just thoughts. He is thinking about the accident but does not anymore telling what had happened.
1 hr
Thank you!
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : no, it's not a matter of "comparison of time sequence". It's a question of the sequence of tenses in English. You can't put only 2 of these in the PP as it's too inconsistent. And "should be past tense" is extremely vague. Which past tense?
1 hr
agree Tina Vonhof (X)
22 hrs
Thank you!
agree Cilian O'Tuama : In a text like this, you could even omit all 'had's. Or maybe just include the first one. It won't be misunderstood.
1 day 6 hrs
Thank you!
neutral Helena Chavarria : Sorry, I don't agree with you.
3 days 18 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I would like to thank everybody for their input/comments. Special thanks to Oliver Simões for the link to Jami Gold's site."
+1
51 mins

All in the simple past

As you say, the sequence of events is very clear. I personally think using the simple past throughout would make the flashback more immediate and more powerful. The past perfect is somehow clumsier.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : I actually disagree. Yes, in speech you could make a case for all verbs in the PS but grammatically speaking and in writing, that's incorrect. And don't know why you see PP as "clumsier"?
1 hr
Of course I know that it's grammatically incorrect (as I'm sure the asker does). My argument is that this flashback works in a similar way to speech, where we do ofen omit it because too many "hads" are cacophonic and dare I say it, clumsy?
agree Cilian O'Tuama : No need to complicate it.
1 day 5 hrs
neutral Helena Chavarria : In UK/European English, all in past simple would be wrong.
3 days 17 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

looked (simple past); remebered (sp); had hit (past perfect); remembered (sp); had stopped (pp); was

Dear Talyeb,

If the context is formal, e.g., academic, then all grammar rules and writing conventions are to be applied.

‘Past tense... denotes an act, state, or condition that occurred at some explicit or implicit point in the past.’ As for past-perfect tense (or pluperfect), ‘it refers to an act, state, or condition that was completed before another specified or implicit time past or past action.’ (Chicago Manual of Style, 2017)

Having that noted, the paragraph in a formal context would be as follows:

John looked at his car. The car wasn’t drivable. He remembered the moment he had hit the other vehicle very well. He remembered the blue sedan that had stopped abruptly in the middle of the road. There was no time to hit the brakes. His life flashed before his eyes. His car rear-ended the blue sedan, and the airbags deployed. John looked at the wrecked car again, shook his head and decided to walk home.

Of note, if the context is not formal, e.g., general, casual, creative, then some stylistic flexibility or some bending of rules and conventions can be entertained. In fact, native speakers often use simple past over pluperfect. You may use past simple though it might cause a little gasp of horror if read by a grammar stickler. :)
Peer comment(s):
agree Cilian O'Tuama : IMO the context is not formal, so this approach works.
1 day 5 hrs
neutral Helena Chavarria : I was taught to speak well wherever I am and in all situations. For example, I can remember my mother correcting me on one occasion when I said 'drawRer' (with an 'R' in the middle).
3 days 17 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

mix of past simple + past perfect

as a teacher of EFL the actual order of tenses here should be
Past Simple (PS) for any simple/finished past action and Past perfect for any actions that take place BEFORE those past simple actions.

Thus:

looked wasn’t remembered PS

he had hit PP

He remembered (PS)...

had stopped...had been. ... had flashed.... had rear-ended ...had deployed. PP

John looked ...shook ... decided (PS)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2021-02-20 21:26:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You think "the sequence of events is clear", but the sequence or order of tenses in formal writing is also clear and grammatically speaking, that calls for a mix of Past Simple and Past Perfect.
And nothing "clumsy" about the Past Perfect.
Peer comment(s):
agree Petrus Maritz
22 mins
Many thanks:-)
disagree Oliver Simões : If you apply prescriptive grammar, yes, but writing (especially creative writing) goes beyond what the grammar books tell us. No one deserves to read a paragraph with too many "hads". Check out Jami Gold's take on the subject.
1 hr
You are agreeing with a wrong answer and disagreeing with this (right) one? And it took you 8 edits to write this comment yet think you can lecture me on English?
agree Tony M
1 hr
Thanks Tony!
neutral Diego Cortez : if he is just thinking in an action that happened before another but he had not realized at the moment, in this example: he is supposing that he had had any time to hit the break, but actually, he had had. It is just a supposition, should I use PP or PS?
1 hr
I don't understand your question?
disagree Cilian O'Tuama : Your "As a teacher, the order should be..." implies the order is a teacher. // Sorry for rambling. //You obv. want a disagree
7 hrs
Your comprehension is even worse than your Denglish. I seem to have rattled your cage in some way. Piece of work!
agree Arabic & More
9 hrs
Many thanks:-)
agree Helena Chavarria : This is the best answer. As you point out, in most cases, 'had' would be pronounced either 'd' or 'əd'.
3 days 17 hrs
Thank you Helena for your confirmation :-)
disagree Kiet Bach : Respectfully disagree. Imagine the author keeps on writing: "The ambulance had come. The police had also come and had made a report. The other driver had been taken to the hospital, .....". Really?
5 days
Disrespectful! A tit-for-tat disagree and ciompletely unwarranted. Why imagine? Why not stick to ST (ends with Past Simple "he looked [...] walked away instead of hypothesising??
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