May 27, 2022 15:42
1 yr ago
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Latin term
et negi canonier negi regis quominus
Latin to English
Other
Genealogy
comes from a 1697 Alsatian marriage record involving my 8th great grandfather; here is the complete entry, but I am only looking for a common usage translation of the above:
Secundum statuta sacri consily tridentini rite matrimonio copulatus est die quinta mensy february 1697 henestus [typo? possibly honetus] Joannes Mayer filius legitimus Joannis Mayer et Ursula Moch ex dominatu suncio in Hybernia cum henesta [typo? possibly honeta] Susanna, filia legitima Jacobi Daul et Margareta prata ti uxorie ex Gessenheim nec quidquam impedimenti repertum et negi canonier negi regis quominus in facie Ecclia copulari petuerint
Secundum statuta sacri consily tridentini rite matrimonio copulatus est die quinta mensy february 1697 henestus [typo? possibly honetus] Joannes Mayer filius legitimus Joannis Mayer et Ursula Moch ex dominatu suncio in Hybernia cum henesta [typo? possibly honeta] Susanna, filia legitima Jacobi Daul et Margareta prata ti uxorie ex Gessenheim nec quidquam impedimenti repertum et negi canonier negi regis quominus in facie Ecclia copulari petuerint
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +1 | neither canonical nor royal, that they not | Mark Pleas |
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May 27, 2022 15:42: Yana Dovgopol changed "Vetting" from "Needs Vetting" to "Vet OK"
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Proposed translations
+1
13 hrs
Selected
neither canonical nor royal, that they not
"repertum et" would presumably be a misreading for "repertum est". The Latin of the final phrase would therefore be as follows:
...nec quidquam impedimenti repertum est —neque canonis neque regis — quominus in facie Ecclesiae copulari potuerint.
("...nor was any impediment found — either canonical or royal — that would make them unable to be married before the Church.")
As indicated in the discussion, "negi" here must almost certainly be a misreading of "neque". It cannot in any way be connected with the verb "negō" (I deny) because 1) it would have to be either an infinitive (negare, negari) or a subjunctive (neget, negetur), and none of these contains "negi", 2) if the "et" is a misreading of "est", then the main sentence has a complete predicate (est) and the subordinate clause (quominus ... copulari potuerint) also has a complete predicate (potuerint), leaving no grammatical role (or subject) for any act of "denial", and 3) since the canons in question are simply written documents rather than living actors, the use of the verb "negō" with them would be strange, and a verb such as "vetō", "prohibeō", or "repugnō" would almost certainly need to be used instead.
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Note added at 5 days (2022-06-02 13:44:56 GMT)
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Thank you for sending me the photo. I would transcribe the entry as follows (uncertain letters replaced by asterisks):
Secùndùm Statùta Sacri Consilij Tridentini rite matrimo-
nio copulatùs est die quinta mensis februarij 1697 honestùs
Joannes Mayer filiùs legittimus Joannis Mayer, Et Ursulæ
Moch Ex domi**tù Suncio. in Hybernia cùm honesta
Susanna. filia legittima Jacobi daul Et Margaretæ præfa
ti uxori* ex g***enheim nec quidquam impedimenti
repertùm est neque canonici, neque regij quominus in facie Eccliæ
copùlari potuerint
So, the actual wording is in fact "est neque canonici, neque regij quominus", and the fact that "neque canonici, neque regij" means "neither canonical nor royal" is made even clearer from alternate wording that the same pastor uses in other marriage entries on those same pages:
— nullum neque Canonicum, neque Regium impedimentum repertum est
— nihil repertum est, neque Canonicum neque Regium impedimentum
— nec impedimentum, neque Regium, neque Canonicum repertum
— nullum impedimentum neque canonicum, neque regium repertum est
— nec ullum impedimentum Canonicum vel Regium repertum est
— nec quidquam impedimenti repertum est neque canonici, neque regij
— nullum impedimentum neque canonicum neque regium repertum fuerit
— nec impedimentum Regium sive Canonicum repertum est
— nec impedimentum Canonicum vel Regium repertum esse
What was transcribed as "prata ti" was in fact "præfa" at the end of one line and "ti" at the beginning of the next line. (There may be a hyphen after "præfa" to show that the two word fragments are connected, but the image is so dark there that I can't be sure.) Together this makes "præfati", i.e., "of the aforesaid", so that the pastor is saying that Susanna is the legitimate daughter of Jacob Daul and of Margareta, the wife of the aforesaid (i.e., the wife of Jacob).
...nec quidquam impedimenti repertum est —neque canonis neque regis — quominus in facie Ecclesiae copulari potuerint.
("...nor was any impediment found — either canonical or royal — that would make them unable to be married before the Church.")
As indicated in the discussion, "negi" here must almost certainly be a misreading of "neque". It cannot in any way be connected with the verb "negō" (I deny) because 1) it would have to be either an infinitive (negare, negari) or a subjunctive (neget, negetur), and none of these contains "negi", 2) if the "et" is a misreading of "est", then the main sentence has a complete predicate (est) and the subordinate clause (quominus ... copulari potuerint) also has a complete predicate (potuerint), leaving no grammatical role (or subject) for any act of "denial", and 3) since the canons in question are simply written documents rather than living actors, the use of the verb "negō" with them would be strange, and a verb such as "vetō", "prohibeō", or "repugnō" would almost certainly need to be used instead.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 days (2022-06-02 13:44:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Thank you for sending me the photo. I would transcribe the entry as follows (uncertain letters replaced by asterisks):
Secùndùm Statùta Sacri Consilij Tridentini rite matrimo-
nio copulatùs est die quinta mensis februarij 1697 honestùs
Joannes Mayer filiùs legittimus Joannis Mayer, Et Ursulæ
Moch Ex domi**tù Suncio. in Hybernia cùm honesta
Susanna. filia legittima Jacobi daul Et Margaretæ præfa
ti uxori* ex g***enheim nec quidquam impedimenti
repertùm est neque canonici, neque regij quominus in facie Eccliæ
copùlari potuerint
So, the actual wording is in fact "est neque canonici, neque regij quominus", and the fact that "neque canonici, neque regij" means "neither canonical nor royal" is made even clearer from alternate wording that the same pastor uses in other marriage entries on those same pages:
— nullum neque Canonicum, neque Regium impedimentum repertum est
— nihil repertum est, neque Canonicum neque Regium impedimentum
— nec impedimentum, neque Regium, neque Canonicum repertum
— nullum impedimentum neque canonicum, neque regium repertum est
— nec ullum impedimentum Canonicum vel Regium repertum est
— nec quidquam impedimenti repertum est neque canonici, neque regij
— nullum impedimentum neque canonicum neque regium repertum fuerit
— nec impedimentum Regium sive Canonicum repertum est
— nec impedimentum Canonicum vel Regium repertum esse
What was transcribed as "prata ti" was in fact "præfa" at the end of one line and "ti" at the beginning of the next line. (There may be a hyphen after "præfa" to show that the two word fragments are connected, but the image is so dark there that I can't be sure.) Together this makes "præfati", i.e., "of the aforesaid", so that the pastor is saying that Susanna is the legitimate daughter of Jacob Daul and of Margareta, the wife of the aforesaid (i.e., the wife of Jacob).
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Tomasso
: D'accord, latin hard for me, what is prata ti ?
11 hrs
|
Thanks! I really don't have any idea what words like "suncio" and "prata" might be, but because "nec quidquam impedimenti repertum" and some other parts are in good Latin, I assume that the unintelligible parts must be transcription or OCR errors.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Discussion
Would it be possible for you to place a photo of the section online somewhere and then put a link to it here, or else mail the photo to me directly?