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Katastrophenmediziner
Organzasäckchen

Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

Liebfrauenschwester

English translation:

Sisters of Our Lady

Added to glossary by Stephen Old
Nov 4, 2017 16:40
6 yrs ago
German term

Liebfrauenschwester

Non-PRO German to English Other Religion Convent/communities of nuns in Zug, Switzerland
This is from an autobiography of man from Switzerland. He went back to Switzerland to visit his cousin, who "(sie) trat im Jahr meiner Geburt in die Gemeinschaft der Liebfrauenschwester in Zug ein." There were very few nuns (or sisters) in the community at the time so it may well have closed down now. This may be why I cannot find any references to it.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 Sisters of Our Lady
4 -1 Franciscan Sisters of Our Lady of Perpetual Help
References
Just to be clear
Change log

Nov 7, 2017 00:37: Björn Vrooman changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): Lancashireman, Herbmione Granger, Björn Vrooman

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Discussion

Stephen Old (asker) Nov 7, 2017:
Liebfrauenschwester. Thanks again Herbalchemist and Lancashireman. I should explain that this translation was of the autobiography of an extremely well connected man who is based in London. My deadline was yesterday, and the previous day I had accidentally deleted (for very complicated reasons). about ten pages of my translation. Yesterday I had to redo these and translate another five pages or so from pdfs. I was very stressed. As the German was so unclear, I used a phrase like "at the convent of the Virgin Mary," which is more likely to be accurate. I also spoke to the Project Manager in London on the phone. She said she will take this up, together with other unclear sections of the source text, with the customer's PA. I will let you know if I hear anything. Stephen
Herbmione Granger Nov 6, 2017:
Stephen I'm not trying to make you feel bad about your choice. I think that something like 'she entered the congregation of Franciscan Sisters in Zug (Liebfrauenschwestern)' would have reflected the original better.

The Third Order part is not important for the narrative, but there shouldn't be such resistance to including it:
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/third-orders#B._Congre...
In Switzerland there once existed many congregations of the Third Order, and even now there are several convents of strict enclosure. Of the active congregations the most noteworthy are the two founded by the Capuchin Theodosius Florentini, viz. the Sisters of the Holy Cross for schools, with mother-house at Menzingen (1844), with numerous convents outside Switzerland, and the Sisters of the Holy Cross for hospital work (1852), with mother-house at Ingenbohl.
Lancashireman Nov 6, 2017:
Thanks for returning to the Q after closure... Not many askers would! I am thinking of the effect in continuous prose (autobiography). 'Liebfrauenschwester' may sound OK in the source text. 'Sisters of Our Lady' simply doesn't work in EN. See also Allegro's comment on PG's answer.
Stephen Old (asker) Nov 6, 2017:
Liebfrauenschwester. Thank you for further comments andrew. The translation may be banal but it is an accurate reflection of the German. this term may be the name by which the locals call the convent or may reflect the author's dismissive attitude to the RC church. I have no way of knowing.
Herbmione Granger Nov 6, 2017:
Our Lady of XYZ "Our Lady of Perpetual Help is just one of many many titles which are used to describe the woman whom Protestants just call Mary"
Herbmione Granger Nov 6, 2017:
Schwestern Unserer Lieben Frau Does not refer to a Franziskanische Gemeinschaft. My links showed that Liebfrauenschwestern in general and in Zug refers to a congregation of the third order of St. Francis.
Stephen Old (asker) Nov 6, 2017:
I looked at as many links as I had time to before delivering the translation by the deadline. The precise order of nuns was not critical to the meaning of my text but it would have been nice to found it. Thank you for all your efforts.
Lancashireman Nov 6, 2017:
"In the absence of any further information..." Duh... That was the whole point of the additional links provided.
Lancashireman Nov 6, 2017:
tauteam or Wikipedia? Wiki: In 1978, the Third Order of Saint Francis was reorganised...

Asker's context: "This is from an autobiography of man from Switzerland.... (sie) trat im Jahr meiner Geburt in die Gemeinschaft der Liebfrauenschwester"
AllegroTrans Nov 5, 2017:
The Franciscan Third Order is not nuns The Third Order of Saint Francis, historically known as the Order of Penance of Saint Francis,[1][2][3] is a third order within the Franciscan movement of the Catholic Church. It includes both congregations of vowed men and women and fraternities of men and women living standard lives in the world, married most of the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Order_of_Saint_Francis

It has been believed that the Third Order of Saint Francis was the oldest of all third orders, but historical evidence does not support this. Similar institutions are found in documentation of some monastic orders in the 12th century. In addition, a third order has been found among the Humiliati, confirmed together with its rule by Pope Innocent III in 1201.[4]

In 1978, the Third Order of Saint Francis was reorganised and given a new Rule of Life by Pope Paul VI. With the new rule, the name used by the secular branch of the order was changed to the Secular Franciscan Order.[5]
Lancashireman Nov 5, 2017:
Allegro Did you read the first line on the tauteam page where this address is listed?
"Ziemlich genau 2000 Schwestern und Brüder zählt die franziskanische Deutschschweiz..."
and then lower down
"Die Schwestern und Brüder des Dritten Ordens"

I appreciate that you're trying to be even-handed with your double-whammy but...
AllegroTrans Nov 5, 2017:
Which gets us back to the precise location, but no further with a correct translation into English.
Lancashireman Nov 5, 2017:
Yes, it does Gemeinschaft der Liebfrauenschwestern
Zugerbergstrasse 33 b
6300 Zug
Herbmione Granger Nov 5, 2017:
Does this help? tauteam.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=24
Stephen Old (asker) Nov 5, 2017:
Liebfrauenschwester. Thank you allegro Trans but that is precisely why I asked the question. I could not find any order simply called the Sisters of our Lady. the author of my text many not have been overly concerned to get the exact title of the order correct. It could have been the Sisters of Mary, Mother of God, Sisters of Mary Immaculate, Sisters of Our Lady of Zug, or anything. I asked the question to see if anybody else knew.
AllegroTrans Nov 5, 2017:
The fact that googling the name of this Order gives only a handful of results - most of them relating to Zug - convinces me that it's a small Order, possibly confined to to this one location
Stephen Old (asker) Nov 5, 2017:
Thanks. Lancashireman, Our Lady of Perpetual Help is just one of many many titles which are used to describe the woman whom Protestants just call Mary! Iknow some which aren't on this list! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Mary
Lancashireman Nov 5, 2017:
Stephen "As I cannot be sure that this order has a house in Zug..."
Please follow this link:
http://www.punktdiakonie.ch/index.php/institutionen/kloester...
As you can see, the order in Zug provides "Begleitung von Menschen in schwierigen Situationen". Sounds very helpful, maybe even perpetual.
Stephen Old (asker) Nov 5, 2017:
Liebfrauenschwester. Thanks for the reply Brigitte. My sister went to the Notre Dame High School in Norwich - listed on the Wikipedia page. Her favourite teacher had moved there from the house in Liverpool, which is where I now live. As I cannot be sure that this order has a house in Zug, I think I will keep the translation simple and say Our Lady. As you will know, Mary has so many different titles in the Catholic church.
BrigitteHilgner Nov 5, 2017:
But there is also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Notre_Dame_de_Namur
BrigitteHilgner Nov 5, 2017:
Background information https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwestern_Unserer_Lieben_Frau...
Stephen Old (asker) Nov 4, 2017:
Thanks herbalchemist. I might have seen other brief references to this order but there was nothing in English. As you know, many German websites have an English version too.
Herbmione Granger Nov 4, 2017:
Gemeinschaft der Liebfrauenschwestern Should still exist.
http://www.punktdiakonie.ch/index.php/institutionen/kloester...
Stephen Old (asker) Nov 4, 2017:
Liebfrauenschwester. Thanks Phil. I knew that Liebfrau is Our Lady - but I am a Catholic and I have never heard of this order, that's why I wanted to be sure.

Proposed translations

+1
12 mins
Selected

Sisters of Our Lady

"Liebfrau" is a reference to the Virgin Mary. There are several examples in my reference.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 mins (2017-11-04 16:54:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Liebfraumilch is "Milk of Our Lady".
Reference:

http://mymemory.translated.net/en/German/English/liebfrau

Peer comment(s):
neutral writeaway : or Notre Dame ?
3 hrs
agree Daniel Arnold (X) : i think you are spot on phil
5 hrs
disagree AllegroTrans : You are right about the translation of Liebfrau but that's as far as it goes; there is no Order simply called "Sisters of Our Lady" (at least in English) as simple googling will prove
21 hrs
It's probably short for something else, but it's what the German says. You can't just make up stuff to go on the end because it "sounds a bit sparse".
neutral Lancashireman : Lots of disagrees flying about here! Rather bad form, I think. Sisters of Our Lady sounds as plausible in EN as the Daughters of the American Revolution or the Sons of Katie Elder. // It is intended as a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.
1 day 6 hrs
I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with my answer, since both the examples you cite are real phrases, but thanks.
agree Gordon Matthews : Obviously the best bet. Unless one knows for sure, I see no justification for adding anything about "perpetual help" or whatever, which does not appear in the original German. "Sisters of our Dear Lady" would be a more (perhaps too) literal translation.
1 day 17 hrs
Thanks.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks again, I just kept the translation simple. There is a whole Wikipedia page on the various titles used for Mary in the R. C. church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Mary In the absence of any further information, we cannot guess on which of these might be meant. "
-1
6 hrs

Franciscan Sisters of Our Lady of Perpetual Help

My suggestion after seeing the Liebfrauenschwestern here:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franziskanische_Gemeinschaft
Aus dem Dritten Orden haben sich eine Vielzahl neuer Gemeinschaften entwickelt, besonders im 19. Jahrhundert, die als Amigonianer, Elisabethinen, Franziskanerbrüder vom Heiligen Kreuz, Franziskusbrüder, Franziskanerinnen, Kapuzinerinnen oder Liebfrauenschwestern den Regulierten Dritten Orden bilden.

and consulting with someone more experienced in these matters.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2017-11-05 08:58:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Could be an Our Lady: encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/franciscan-sisters

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2017-11-05 15:10:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

tauteam.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=24

Safe and accurate option: Congregation of Sisters of the Third Order of St. Francis of Our Lady
Peer comment(s):
agree Lancashireman : "Sisters of Our Lady" sounds a bit sparse. http://www.punktdiakonie.ch/index.php/institutionen/kloester...
13 mins
disagree philgoddard : It doesn't say anything about "perpetual help", and nor do your own or Lancashireman's references. Perpetual help is immerwährende Hilfe.
5 hrs
disagree AllegroTrans : This is a Canadian-based order and it doesn't seem to have any convents in Switzerland: see http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9175 - Your ref doesn't mention Zug at all; definitely NOT Third Order, which is a laypersons' organisation
15 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

21 hrs
Reference:

Just to be clear

There IS a web reference to this Order of nuns in Zug - but it doesn't lelp with the translation

Gemeinschaft der Liebfrauenschwestern - Diakonie im Dekanat Zug
www.punktdiakonie.ch/.../gemeinschaft-der-liebfrauenschwest...
Translate this page
Diakonie im Kanton Zug, Kirche hilft, Hilfe Zug, Beratung Zug.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2017-11-05 14:22:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://tel.search.ch/zug/zugerbergstrasse-33b/gemeinschaft-...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2017-11-05 14:40:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------



Für Gott und die Caritas : zur Geschichte des Vereins für Kranken- und Wochenpflege im Kanton Zug und der Gemeinschaft der Liebfrauenschwestern
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Für Gott und die Caritas : zur Geschichte des Vereins für Kranken- und Wochenpflege im Kanton Zug und der Gemeinschaft der Liebfrauenschwestern
Author: Albert Müller; Verein für Kranken- und Wochenpflege im Kanton Zug.
Publisher: [Zug] : Verein für Kranken- und Wochenpflege im Kanton Zug (VKWZ), cop. 2005.
Edition/Format: Print book : GermanView all editions and formats

Gemeinschaft der Liebfrauenschwestern -- Geschichte.
Verein für Kranken- und Wochenpflege im Kanton Zug
KOERPERSCHAFTSGESCHICHTE + VERBANDSGESCHICHTE
View all subjects
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree philgoddard : This supports my answer.
1 hr
No and yes! The best answer may be to leave the title in German as this precise Order doesn't seem to exist in an EN-spkg country
agree Lancashireman : This supports herbalchemist's answer!
9 hrs
No, that is totally different religious Order
neutral Björn Vrooman : No offense, but "Canada"? Missouri? https://archstl.org/app/directory/religious_orders/3000215 North Korea?? http://www.vko-neuwied.org/ordensgemeinschaft-sisters-of-our... How's your Google today?
1 day 10 hrs
No offence taken: http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9175
agree Herbmione Granger : Good point: Sisters of Our Lady of Perpetual Help vs. Franciscan Sisters of Our Lady of Perpetual Help
1 day 11 hrs
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