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строгая отчетность
Jan 13, 2006 19:19
18 yrs ago
Russian term

на чердаке

Russian to English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
I'd always thought this simply meant "in the attic."

Can it ever mean anything else? My sentence reads

Is it still "attics" here? I would think living in an attic would be better than in a barrack, but the narrator implies it is worse.
Proposed translations (English)
5 +7 exactly: in attics
3 +7 on the loft
4 +2 here: in poorly insulated (and cold) Russian attic
2 on the veranda

Discussion

Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
Actually, in Russian literature "������" was always associated with the last but one straw - the very last one is living in the sreeat, which is practically impossible because of the climate
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
2David Knowles: It is not an attic we are discussing here: Russian realities of the 30th...the North...of...Russia. Beyond any imagination. Think of Jack London's worlds (Dowson) minus free will, plus full despair...dreadful living conditions...
David Knowles Jan 13, 2006:
We have a loft for keeping suitcases and junk in. You can't properly stand up in it and it's definitely not called an attic, which is bigger. There is another, more recent, US usage for a large open space, formerly commercial, turned into spacious living.
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
...� ��� ������ ���
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
��, �� �������� - � ��� ��� ���� ������ ���� - ���, ��� - � ������� �� �����
Sergei Tumanov Jan 13, 2006:
� ��� �������� ��? :0)))))) ������-�����, ������ �� �������� ��� ������, ��� ��! �� � ���� ���!
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
2Sergei Tumanov: � �������, ��� � ���� �������-��? ���, ���� ��� - �� � �����
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
2Sergei Tumanov: �� ���, ��� �� �� ��������, � �����-��. ��� ���, � ������ - ������, � ���� �������, � ���� ���������. ��� ��� �������. � �� ������� - �� ���, ����� �����
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
���, � ������ �� ����� ���, �� ��������. ������-�� ��� �� ������ ��, ����� ��������, �� ��� �� �������. � ��� - ���� ������, ����, ��� ��� ������
Sergei Tumanov Jan 13, 2006:
� � ��� ���� � ������ �������� �� ���� ��������. ��� ���� �� ����. � � ����������� ��� � � ����?
Sergei Tumanov Jan 13, 2006:
� ������-����� ������ ����� ���, � � ���� ��� ��� ������ ������� ����? � ��� ������-����� ���� �� ���� �������� ������� � �� �������!
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
Generally speaking, it was a matter of surviving "in the attick", not just living...under an iron-sheet roof above the head, with the frost creeping under your skin...an no social insurance
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
...� �����-�� �������� ������� - "���-���", ��������
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
Sergei Tumanov: You should distinguish between permanent brick ovens, which are capable of keeping warmth within 20 hours (good ones), and portable cast-iron ovens, which require constant monitoring, and are warm only if looked after...
Sergei Tumanov Jan 13, 2006:
one or two ovens might be used for heating of a such big barack, just like this one: http://photoua.com/foto/40/4017s.JPG
Sergei Tumanov Jan 13, 2006:
a hanging wall. and only one or two iron ovens for heating in the middle of a barack.
Sergei Tumanov Jan 13, 2006:
I think that the barack on the photo could accomodate about one hundred people inside and about 20-30 people in the loft. So when beds are meant here they are definitely 3-level bays "���". "compartment" for a family was separated by a blanket like
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
well, folks - hips of typos are just results of the Russian New Year celebration...offer my apologies
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
2Kirill Semenov: in nother Russia the roofs are very high, to prevent accumulation of snow - othervise snoe load could break the roof. This is one of the reasons why heating of attics could not be efficient basically
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
and even sleep in beds having their winter cloths on. In summer, the roofs were oveheated by sun - no your must understand what Russian attick used to be...
Kirill Semenov Jan 13, 2006:
Deborah, the problem may lie in that in Russian house the attic or loft was never used to live. Traditionally, it's very low, not much space in it. Even old stuff wasn't usually kept there, so it was really a place for bats only.
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
...live in barracks had adequate protection against winter conditions.(Ovens, properly insulated walls etc.) Those, who lived just below the roof could not have brick ovens - just very simple inefficient cast-iron "burjuika" ovens. So they had to stay...
Deborah Hoffman (asker) Jan 13, 2006:
Very interesting! It seems like something between an attic and a crawlspace.
YelenaM Jan 13, 2006:
the way I see it, I'd rather use "attic". It means pretty much the same thing. However, attic is associated with a single-family house, while loft - with an industrial building or a warehouse. Plus lofts are very "in" in the States now, very "high-end".
Sergei Tumanov Jan 13, 2006:
have a look at a good picture of barak in question. Some people lived in them, others lived in the loft. http://www.translations.ee/barak1.jpg This is definitely not an attic.
Eugene B. Jan 13, 2006:
in Russia attic means somewhat different from what you are accostomed to in warmer European contries. Do not forget that in the region of Igarka winter temperatures can drop far below -30gecC. In spite of all the disedvatages the people who used to...
Kirill Semenov Jan 13, 2006:
Yes, I believe, it was a wooden house, so living at the attic, just between the ceiling and the roof, was very uncomfortable. Not enough height even to stand upright!
Deborah Hoffman (asker) Jan 13, 2006:
I should mention this was in the (then) new city of Igarka, in 1931.

Proposed translations

+7
1 hr
Russian term (edited): �� �������
Selected

exactly: in attics

"Attic" is the most appropriate word here.

"Loft" would be very confusing, especially for an AE reader.
Peer comment(s):
agree Andrey Belousov (X) : I believe for an AE speaker it IS confusing. "in the attic"
2 hrs
Thank you, Andrey.
agree Blithe
2 hrs
Thank you, Blithe.
agree koundelev
5 hrs
Thank you, George.
agree Vladimir Dubisskiy : absolutely not loft. Esp. considering the context.
7 hrs
Thank you, Vladimir.
agree Andrey Rykov
12 hrs
Thank you, Andrey.
agree Aleksandr Okunev (X)
15 hrs
Thank you, Aleksandr.
agree Natalia Klimova
5 days
Thank you, Darina.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+7
3 mins
Russian term (edited): �� �������

on the loft

Here "чердак" is usually a very unconfortable place, mostly for bats or owls.
Peer comment(s):
agree Dmytro Palets : Yeah, as well as for heaps of old stuff.
3 mins
Sure, Dima :) Thanks :)
agree David Knowles : IN the loft!
8 mins
oh, my usual problem with articles or prepositions - thank you David! :)
agree Erzsébet Czopyk : The loft is a lot better place than the attic :-) I lived there 5 years
16 mins
oh, poor Czopyk, I'm sorry...
agree Sergei Tumanov
19 mins
agree Janina Nowrot
45 mins
agree Alexander Alexandrov : Bomzhes (persons OFNA (of no fixed abode)) live there, too. Even now. Even in St.Petersburg
51 mins
neutral Eugene B. : bats cannot live in a place occupied by people. What you mean is: people came, bats withdrew. No - as barracks were built in the 30th, people used to live in the attics from the very beginning, bats simply did not have any chance...
1 hr
I think, enough of explanations is alrwady given, so I leave to the native speakers to decide which is the most appopriate word here
neutral Roman Bardachev : is it just me who associates a loft with a higher end dwelling?
1 hr
давайте не о букве, а о духе. Пояснений больше чем достаточно, пусть теперь решают нейтивы
neutral Vladimir Dubisskiy : it's 'attic' not 'loft'. English native speaker can hardly know what "cherdak" in FSU stands for.
8 hrs
agree Dorene Cornwell : IN the loft. I do not know what urban rusticism lies behind the usage of "loft" for tony if unconventional urban dwelling, but my farm-girl mohter slept in a loft as described here growing up in the Rocky mountains.
8 hrs
Something went wrong...
22 mins
Russian term (edited): �� �������

on the veranda

I believe "чердак" is of Turkish origing meaning (at least in some Slavonic languages) "a porch or a balcony, raised, usually roofed, often made of wood, on the front or side of a building.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 24 mins (2006-01-13 19:43:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

a typo found: ...of Turkish origin... Sorry. :)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 27 mins (2006-01-13 19:46:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In Bulgarian, for example, a "чердак" has nothing to do with а loft or an attic. Just a thought. :)
Something went wrong...
+2
56 mins
Russian term (edited): �� �������

here: in poorly insulated (and cold) Russian attic

see in Ask Asker field
Peer comment(s):
agree Roman Bardachev : of course
37 mins
I see - you live in Russia! Thanks
agree Vladimir Dubisskiy : attic (not Russian)
7 hrs
Thanks
Something went wrong...
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