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Señor de la villa
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Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

Gitanos

English translation:

Gypsies

Added to glossary by broca
May 12, 2023 11:01
1 yr ago
42 viewers *
Spanish term

Gitanos

Spanish to English Social Sciences History
Gypsies (is this pejorative?)/Roma people?
"Los gitanos de El Puerto de Santa María en tiempos del marqués de la Ensenada"
Título de artículo póstumo de Luis Suárez Ávila. Lamento no tener más contexto.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 Gypsies
4 +1 Roma people
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Andrés Martínez

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Discussion

Simone Taylor May 13, 2023:
Gypsy is an exonym (a name given by outsiders, based on the mistaken belief that Romanis came from Egypt) and some Romani people find it offensive, as it has negative connotations,[1][2] such as that the people are dishonest or thieving (compare gypsy, gyp), and it is associated with discrimination and persecution of Romani. Many dictionaries recommend avoiding the term, or give it a negative or warning label.[3][4][5][6][7][8] Gypsy is still more common overall than Romani,[9] and is a common term of self-indication among Romani in the United Kingdom.[10]
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
Fingers crossed! :) As I said, it does depend on who you are writing for. When I worked on a video about the holocaust, I left Zigeunerlager because I think gypsies were one of the least offensive things on that video with so many horrors, so just try to make the right call based on your public and material.
broca (asker) May 12, 2023:
I hope not, Simone!
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
It depends on when it was written. It is really up to you what term you will use but nowadays with such terms you could be asking for trouble for yourself.
broca (asker) May 12, 2023:
https://books.google.es/books?id=l6rInNp8aYMC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA...
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
The book I worked on referred to the travellers who lived in Gypsy Hill in London in the nineteenth century. Technically, they are Roma, but at the time, they were called Gypsies, and now there's a general consensus to call them Roma people. I called them Roma in the present time, and when the book switched to dialogues in the nineteenth century, I used travellers. I avoided using gypsies even though people at the time would use that, but again, it was a piece of fiction.
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
Hi, Carol, it is true, and this is not new. The term was used as a racial slur in concentration camps, the zigeurnerlagers, so it is considered offensive nowadays. Although Romani sounds as if they are from Romania, it is actually referring to most groups of nomadic people from Asia, all the descendants of the Scythians, some groups from Syria and other parts of the Middle East, so giving that a lot of these groups who went to Spain actually went through the North African route, it is not so far-fetched. The thing is, these terms have changed in definition, and it is the consensus nowadays that Roma is more respectable.
Carol Gullidge May 12, 2023:
Gypsies I have to say that at my great age this is the first time I’ve heard that the term “gypsy” was in the least bit derogatory. Old fashioned maybe, but not offensive. Excuse my ignorance, but how can this be?
I agree that it somehow seems a contradiction to call Irish gypsies etc “Roma”…
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
From the Government website: 2. The Gypsy, Roma and Traveller group
The term Gypsy, Roma and Traveller has been used to describe a range of ethnic groups or people with nomadic ways of life who are not from a specific ethnicity.

In the UK, it is common in data collections to differentiate between:

Gypsies (including English Gypsies, Scottish Gypsies or Travellers, Welsh Gypsies and other Romany people)
Irish Travellers (who have specific Irish roots)
Roma, understood to be more recent migrants from Central and Eastern Europe
The term Traveller can also encompass groups that travel. This includes, but is not limited to, New Travellers, Boaters, Bargees and Showpeople. (See the House of Commons Committee report on Tackling inequalities faced by Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities.)
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
The book I worked on referred to the travellers who lived in Gypsy Hill in London in the nineteenth century. Technically, they are Roma, but at the time, they were called Gypsies, and now there's a general consensus to call them Roma people. I called them Roma in the present time, and when the book switched to dialogues in the nineteenth century, I used travellers. I avoided using gypsies even though people at the time would use that, but again, it was a piece of fiction.
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
I think gipsies became derogatory because they had a properly assigned place for them at concentration camps, the zigeurnerlagers (The gipsy camps) where it was used as a racial slur.
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
It's tricky because Roma or Romani implies the group who originally came from the Indian peninsula, Russian steppes, all the descendants of the Scythians, but then when it comes to Europe, authors always diverge on the subject. It depends on how precise you need to be and who your target public is. If it is an academic piece or a documentary aimed at the general public, for example. As my piece was fiction directed to the general public, I chose Roma and travellers, but in Europe, in general, they were not exactly Roma or Romani. I think travellers or nomadic people are quite safe. It really depends on your target audience.
broca (asker) May 12, 2023:
Thank you, Simone. This author, for instance, differentiates between gypsies and Roma people: https://www.google.es/books/edition/Another_Darkness_Another...
In 18th-century Spain, would they be called gypsies, or Roma?
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
From the Government website: 2. The Gypsy, Roma and Traveller group
The term Gypsy, Roma and Traveller has been used to describe a range of ethnic groups or people with nomadic ways of life who are not from a specific ethnicity.

In the UK, it is common in data collections to differentiate between:

Gypsies (including English Gypsies, Scottish Gypsies or Travellers, Welsh Gypsies and other Romany people)
Irish Travellers (who have specific Irish roots)
Roma, understood to be more recent migrants from Central and Eastern Europe
The term Traveller can also encompass groups that travel. This includes, but is not limited to, New Travellers, Boaters, Bargees and Showpeople. (See the House of Commons Committee report on Tackling inequalities faced by Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities.)
Simone Taylor May 12, 2023:
The strange thing is that the UK Government's website uses gipsies, but I think it is controversial. I have recently written about the Romany or Roma people, and I also used travellers to encompass other groups, such as the Irish travellers but never gipsies.

Proposed translations

+3
8 hrs
Selected

Gypsies

The article below appeared in the Guardian this week. Said newspaper is quite sensitised to terms that might cause offence, so I doubt they would have published it if they deemed it unacceptable.
I know that the politically correct form used nowadays in many circles is Roma, but I’ve never been happy with that myself because not all “Gypsies” are ethnically Roma. In Europe, the traditional distinction was drawn between Zingaros and Gitanos, the former being more northern, AFAIK.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2023-05-12 19:12:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

NB: Interestingly, Simone’s link misspells gypsy, which prompts me to wonder what else it might be mistaken about.
The word is a corruption of Egyptian, as people used to think they came from Egypt.
Likewise, the English epithet “toerag” is a corruption of Tuareg, but I don’t see many people getting their knickers in a twist about it…

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/toerag


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Note added at 21 hrs (2023-05-13 08:12:34 GMT)
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Offence is in the eye of the beholder. And now, the era.
In my youth, no one blinked twice at Jimi Hendrix and Band of Gypsys - a live album and the first without his original group, the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Or when the who sang "I'm the Gypsy, the Acid Queen", it was not perceived as a slur. Maybe I'm getting too old for all this instant trigger nonsense.


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Note added at 22 hrs (2023-05-13 09:43:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

LOL, yes, the Fleetwood Mac song doesn't seem to be found offensive by many out there (but these trigger-happy days, you never know)...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2023-05-13 09:44:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://www.academia.edu/17586896/Gypsies_Roma_in_Montenegro...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2023-05-13 09:48:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In the published paper I've just posted, the author seems to circumvent the "Gypsies" issued by using "Egyptians".
"An unofficial census implemented jointly by the National Council of Roma and Egyptians of Montenegro and the Statistical Institute of Montenegro showed that the total number of citizens and residents declaring Roma, Gypsy, Aškali, or Egyptian identity is 9,934..."
Example sentence:

Spain's oldest and most authoritative dictionary has prompted outrage by defining “gypsy” as “one who lies and cheats”.

Reference:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/07/we-need-to-get-out-how-gypsy-families-were-driven-out-of-spanish-town-by-mob

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/07/museum-celebrates-barcelona-disappearing-gypsy-heritage

Note from asker:
What about Fleetwood Mac's "Gypsy", from the 1982 album "Mirage"?
Peer comment(s):
agree slothm
9 hrs
Great minds...:)
agree Chema Nieto Castañón : Both in XVIII century Spain and nowadays; it would be just weird calling Spanish gypsies Roma or Travellers
18 hrs
neutral Simone Taylor : It is not a misspelling, both spellings are accepted.
18 hrs
agree patinba : I remember reading somewhere that UK gypsies did not like being considered the same tribe as central European Roma.
20 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks"
+1
6 mins

Roma people

Gipsy is considered an offensive way to refer to the Roma people.
https://mindfulmermaid.com/stopsayinggypsy/

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 mins (2023-05-12 11:09:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Rom
Peer comment(s):
agree Muriel Vasconcellos
6 hrs
Thank you!
Something went wrong...
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